In this episode Ryan Maher shares how to make money with Instagram using these new strategies to drive free traffic to your blog, ecommerce site, product or affiliate program…

…using nothing more than a smartphone, images and your winning personality (and sometimes you don’t even need that.. haha)

Have you installed Instagram on your smartphone but quit using it because you didn’t figure out a way to use it to grow your business?

Wondering how come other people have thousands or millions of followers while you only have 10?

To help you make the most of this new, innovative way to reach and engage consumers, I’ve sat down with an Indianapolis-based social media strategist, entrepreneur, app developer, and blogger who owns and makes money off popular Instagram accounts – Ryan Maher.

If you think that there must be a way to make money with Instagram, you’re totally right, and you should stick around to read (or listen to) what Ryan has to share about what and when to post, how to drive traffic to your own website, why so many marketers fail and how you can protect yourself from any wrong steps, what free tools and resources you should use to create “like” magnets, and getting paid for curating content.

Things to Know about this 7 Figure Furnace Episode

If this is your first time on the 7 Figure Furnace website, know you’re in good hands. I’m the host of an actionable advice-packed podcast, rapidly gaining new listeners from all over the World, all thanks to our esteemed guests.

Each person I interview has made a name for themselves in social media marketing, MMO, affiliate management, product creation and development, content marketing, and entrepreneurship.

make money with instagram - Ryan Maher

In this episode, I interview Ryan Maher, whose Instagram accounts might already be on your following list inside the app because his combined accounts count over half a million followers – more people than there are in Atlanta or Miami.

If you’d like to dive deeper into the subject of making money with Instagram, you should check out Ryan’s online course – Instagram Academy.

Now, buckle up, we’ll speed through the most efficient strategies for growing your business with Instagram.


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Instagram 101: Getting to Know the Basics

Instagram is one of the most important social media platforms people use around the world. There are more than 400 million monthly active users. People upload 80 million photos each day. The numbers are astronomical, and it’s a big thing for a platform that started out as an app. Last year, 27.6% of the entire US population used Instagram at least once.

Everybody loves Instagram, and this is because a picture is worth a thousand words, and visual communication is increasingly becoming more present and more important in our lives. It’s also super focused – it’s about photos and short videos that people upload, write captions for, interact with, so it’s not about too many services bundled into one, but just a simple, straightforward service that doesn’t make people’s head spin.

Facebook bought Instagram some time ago, and they’re making small changes. You can see Facebookís influence on Instagram at this point, but Ryan still thinks itís definitely the platform to be on if youíre trying to drive traffic or build an audience.

What It Means to Be an Account Worth Following

If you’re stopping for a second to think about what makes an Instagram account a valuable one, you realize is the number of followers. So you next have to think about how are people managing to grow an audience; and many did it without realizing they were building a tiny media empire. The answer is this: to build a massive following you need to add value on a regular basis.

You’ll follow the accounts that show you things you’re interested in, but you don’t follow all the accounts on that topic, you follow the ones that deliver the best value to you. People don’t care if those images are yours or curated, they see your account as a delivery system. By following your account, they get the same great content every time.

By delivering the same high-quality every time, and posting frequently, people start considering your account worth following. If there aren’t any people to think that, there’s no point in pushing your products, because people won’t see what you’re offering. Add value on a daily basis, grow your audience, and then start selling products.

Harnessing the Power of Instagram Traffic

Ryan talks about how often he gets asked for a “shout out.” Because his accounts have hundreds of thousands of followers, many other entrepreneurs want to be mentioned on his accounts (getting a shout out) and thus, get some of the Instagram traffic he’s generating.

Most of the people asking for a shout-out on popular Instagram pages get turned down because they aren’t really offering anything in return. Others pay to get their shout-outs on those popular accounts. As you can see, once you build your audience, you can make money with Instagram, even if you don’t have a product, just by offering paid shout-out to entrepreneurs.

Another way of harnessing the power of Instagram traffic is by building relationships with other Instagram users. Ryan posts messages for some of his Instagram friends, and they do the same for him; they don’t even need to discuss this, they just do it, because it’s beneficial for all parties involved.


The Post-for-Post Tactic

On Instagram, when marketers do cross promoting, they call it a post-for-post. This is basically a shout out between two accounts. You do it by giving credit after you post someone else’s image on your account. And they do the same, giving you credit. This way you’re sending traffic back and forth.

New marketers make the mistake of contacting the biggest accounts in their niche. They’ll either ignore you or ask for a lot of money to give you a shout out. It’s a better strategy to reach out to Instagram pages in your niche that have around the same number of followers or even fewer than you do. You can even build strong relationships by starting to post for them without asking for something in return; they’ll be grateful for that, and they’ll want to help you out when you’ll ask them later.

So go ahead, use the caption to give credit to another account by tagging them, and also tag them on the picture. They’ll be notified that you tagged them on the picture so your good deed won’t go unnoticed.


The Easiest Way to Getting Noticed

Everybody is curious, so when you get a new follower, you need to check out to see who that person is as soon as the notification pops up. Luckily, that also means that when you follow someone, they’ll check you out, and when you have an account worth following, that means you’ll also get a new follower.

What Ryan recommends is to follow bigger accounts and also follow the people that are following those pages. They’re already presold on what you’re selling; they’re already following someone in your niche.


The Right Frequency for Creating Opportunities

When people complain that they’re not getting any new followers, Ryan already knows what the problem is – they don’t post frequently enough, and they don’t add value. If you’re posting great content only once per week, there’s no surprise your audience isn’t growing. Very few people see your content.

When you post something on Instagram, you create an opportunity. You are giving people the chance to like your post, to add a comment, to start a discussion in the comments. It’s just like in sports – you miss every chance you don’t take; you have to throw the ball more than once to score more than once. That is why you should post at least a few times each day, and add value.


Leveraging Instagram Engagement Posts

People do something on Instagram that they’ve learned to do on Facebook – to make sure someone they know sees a post, they tag that person. Each “@” in front of a username in your comments represents a new person that will come to see your content.

If you content isn’t good, nobody will tag their friends to see it. So create valuable content, and encourage people to tag their friends. People won’t tag their friends to see promotions, that’s why you shouldn’t run any in the first few month, while you’re growing your account.

make money with instagram

Effective Call-to-Action Examples for Instagram

Sometimes the image is all you need to get people to tag their friends, but you should always have a call-to-action in place. You can add it in the caption of the photo or on top of the picture. When you use the top of the picture, you actually use the space designed for announcing the location where the photo was taken. By using that area to write a CTA there, you’re doing what it’s called location hack.

Some simple and efficient CTA are:

  • Tag a friend who might like this!
  • Tap the link in my bio.
  • Double tap and tag a friend who thinks this!
  • Tag someone you love.
  • Tag your significant other.
  • Tag your best friend.
  • Double tap if you agree.
  • Double tap if you’d like to receive this as a gift.

The CTAs are super effective when they’re coming as something completing the message of the photo. E.g. Using a picture on which it says ìI thank God for you.î and then, in the caption, saying ìTag your significant other.î

“Tap the link in my bio” is the most used CTA on Instagram. It became a code people use to let users know they should go to the publisher’s profile and click the link to a website added there. This happens because the links added in captions aren’t clickable. The link in a profile’s bio section is the only one that is clickable in the app.


Why You Should Take Down Your Promotions

Because you need to keep the account worth following and because people won’t follow accounts that publish promotions because they feel they’ll be spammed, it’s better to leave a promotion up for 24 hours and then just take the picture down. That way, your promotions are seen while they’re relevant, and you keep your account squeaky clean, just like new followers like it.


Taking Advantage of People’s Wind Down Time

Instagram posts have a very different life cycle in comparison to Facebook posts. An Instagram post has a life cycle of around 5 hours. After the 5th hour, you’ll see how engagement drops; people have moved on to something else.

This is why you need to plan for capturing people’s attention when they’re actually checking out Instagram. They can open the app in the morning while they sip their coffee or during their lunch break; they can check out what’s happening there during the evening when they wind down and have some time to kill.

If you’re posting 4 times per day, you’re covering most of these wind-down moments when people open the app.


The Graphic Resources You’ll Need to Succeed

These tools and resources will help you create beautiful images for your Instagram account:

  • Use Canva if you’re using a desktop PC or a Mac. Canva provides templates for social media images, and you can just drag and drop and click things to change the text to whatever you want.
  • Use Unsplash and Pixabay for free pictures.
  • Use Adobe Post and Over to edit the pictures on your iPhone.
  • Use Phonto to edit the pictures on your Android

Sticking to the Official API

Don’t try to use unofficial apps to post or schedule pictures for Instagram; that might get your account suspended. You can switch between multiple accounts directly on Instagram.


How Even Curators Make Money with Instagram

If you have enough followers, you don’t even need to sell your own products to make money with Instagram. You can become an affiliate marketer and sell other people’s products.

The best part about building an audience on Instagram is that you can do it even as a curator. You can create an account like Dogs of Instagram or Cats of Instagram or Hot Guys Reading for your own niche and repost pictures from people submitting proposals using your hashtag. You’ll feature their content, they’ll get the attention of your followers, and you can even monetize your audience.


Remember, to be successful on Instagram you need to be an account worth following, to add value every day, with every single post you’re sharing.

Cindy: Eric, it is fantastic to have you right here on the show. For people who are listening in today who haven’t actually heard about who you are, could you please just explain to them who Eric Weiss is?

Eric: Sure. First of all, thank you for having me here, Cindy, I really appreciate it. Just a quick run-through, I don’t want to bore everyone to death and give you the 20-minute version, but just a quick bio. I actually started out in the corporate world, I had nothing to do with marketing and finance, investment banking working on M&A transactions. After that that’s when I started, and basically it was this opportunity that I found online.

One of these sales pages, I thought, “Oh, is this a scam? Is this not a scam?” I ended up joining this group launching a product on the Warrior Forum at that time. That led to launching a couple of software brands in the JVZoo space, and we were selling the software space today plus on Udemy. That’s another part of my business. The last part is buying and selling digital assets. I know what we are going to be focusing on today is [traffic 00:01:27], so I’m really excited to give people some good tips and strategies.

Cindy: It’s just insane to hear the amount of success that you’ve had and you just started out with just getting an idea and throwing something up on Warrior Forum. This is incredible. Obviously, you had a lot of knowledge before, but isn’t that exciting?

Eric: It was extremely exciting. Let me tell you this, Cindy, I had knowledge, but I had no knowledge of Internet marketing. I had absolutely zero knowledge. It sounds corny when you talk about taking action and all that stuff, but literally at that time I wasn’t too well-off financially, and $100 meant a lot for me. Like I said, I bought into this membership and it cost I think $97 a month at that time, and I saw that there was a 30-day money back guarantee, so I said, “All right, great, perfect, let’s try this out. Worst-case I’ll just refund it.”

That thing putted into my head that I need to do something within 30 days because otherwise I’m going to run out of time and I’m going to lose that $100. Actually it was like a gun to the head type of approach. It went well. Literally that month we did over $20,000 in sales coming from nothing, no knowledge of Internet marketing, absolutely zero. At that time especially at that time my technical knowledge was really, really poor. I’m even embarrassed to say out how non-technical I was at that time.

Cindy: I think everyone starts out like that. I just love hearing the starting stories and I hope our listeners do as well because you don’t have to have a whole lot of experience. Like most people who are doing really well now, most people just started Googling stuff, going to online forums and just connecting with people and listening and just soaking in and obviously podcast, keep listening to podcasts.

Eric: Exactly, exactly. At that point [I was really 00:03:44] listening to podcast, but similar I definitely agree, because there is a webinar type of thing once week type of sessions. It’s the same thing as a podcast.

Cindy: Today we are going to be talking a bit about what you are doing with Udemy because not a lot of people are using Udemy. I know there is a handful of marketers who are doing it, and you are one of the bestsellers on Udemy, correct?

Eric: Thank you, thank you. I’ve done pretty well, although I would say, up to this point it’s around 15,000 students that I have on Udemy, and it’s doing well especially for a project that I didn’t necessarily started to make money or even generate traffic. I had a couple of brands in the Internet marketing space, and the reason I started it was because I was teaching all of my CEOs how to write copy, how to do webinars, how to do product creation. I thought, “I’m going to put these programs together and I’m just going to also put them on Udemy, and then if I ever need to teach anyone from my team, my CEOs or anyone about any of these topics for their marketing or whatever it is, then cool, I kill two birds with one stone.”

Suddenly it started generating all of this massive traffic whether [inaudible 00:05:15] leading to opt-ins, a pretty sizable Facebook group, everything. I definitely recommend it, but no one really uses it as a traffic. Even the people that are on Udemy, they don’t really know what to do with that traffic. Threre are a couple of problems, and the biggest one is Udemy doesn’t give you those email addresses. That’s the biggest problem, you have to know how to get around that, and if you want to call it a legal manner.

Cindy: We are going to be covering a few little bits about Udemy. As you mentioned, you can basically take content that you’ve already created or you can put together your own entire course. Do you want to just quickly explain what Udemy is if people haven’t actually seen it?

Eric: Sure, definitely. Udemy is in a nutshell, it’s a course marketplace, but course is about anything, of course, we are talking about

Internet marketing, marketing courses, but you have courses about cooking, you have courses about yoga, you have courses about fitness, programming. Programming is probably one of the hottest topics; marketing, like we said; business in general; languages, literally everything. People just come there, they find a course, they like it, they buy it, view the course, and its better than getting a university education.

Cindy: You can do it at home, it’s really like a place for people to find stuff if they want to learn new things. There are over, I’m just looking on the website now, there is over 10 million students, so it’s a great marketplace …

Eric: That’s a big traffic [forum 00:07:03].

Cindy: For people who are really hungry to learn.

Eric: Exactly, it’s a massive traffic [forum 00:07:10]. Literally I don’t know how long ago, it’s about a year ago, Udemy has got 60 million, over $60 million, I think $65 million in funding at that point, maybe they even raised more money since. What I want to say is that Udemy is not going anywhere. It’s still in the growth phase and it’s only going to get bigger and bigger.

Cindy: I’ve seen that they are making a whole bunch of changes, like they are allowing users and we’ve probably talked a little bit about this as far as marketing and getting more people on to your courses and all that stuff, but they’ve made it so that your courses can’t be less than $20 now. They have to be between 20 and $50 for a course. A lot of people are using them to give away free courses, so they are really working on building more value and increasing the perceived value in actual courses, I think. Udemy is definitely doing a lot to keep building on their platform.

Eric: Exactly. Cindy, I just want to check, can you still hear me? Cindy: I can, [inaudible 00:08:25] just for a tiny bit. I can still hear now. Eric: Perfect. What was your question? Sorry.

Cindy: I was just talking about the changes in Udemy and just confirming that like they are definitely growing, they are building up for growth and they are definitely working on ways to bring value for the people that are creating courses, not just for the people that are studying them, but keeping actual quality control in there. They are very strong on the quality control.

Eric: Exactly, exactly. Cindy: How do you …?
Eric: [Crosstalk 00:09:05].

Cindy: Why don’t you tell us a little bit about, we probably don’t want to go right into how to create a Udemy course, there are a lot of courses on Udemy on how to do that. As far as marketer goes, if you have content and you want to put it onto Udemy, what is the best way maybe to start structuring your Udemy course so that just for the specific ways of getting people from Udemy onto your mailing list, how do you market to people from Udemy?

Eric: It’s actually pretty easy. I’m not going to go into how to structure a course, but we’ll talk about the traffic, and there are a couple of things that I do that, and I thought about this before I published my first course, I really thought about this, it wasn’t that it just came out of nowhere. I sat down and I said, “Okay, how can I get around this?” Number one, all of my courses are mostly screenshare type of PowerPoint courses because they are marketing, I’m not doing languages or anything like that.

Now that’s really good because what do I have on the bottom of my PowerPoint, I have my website. On every single slide, it says Obviously people see that and everyone that views my course, a lot of the people they are like, if they are listening to my course, they are curious about me, they want to know more about me, and they are probably going to visit my website.

Now I can’t have down there forward slash free opt- in, Udemy would ban me if I did that. Of course, you could put your regular website on there, and then once people start clicking there, of course, there are pop-ups and opt-ins and then things like that. A lot of those people, once they start listening to the course they’ll convert. Now, so that’s one of the ways.

The second way is that in the second or third video of every single course, I make people join a Facebook group, so I say, “Right now …” and very forcefully, I don’t say, “Oh, you can join this Facebook group,” no, but I say, “Hey, right now I need you as the first thing as a part of this course to join the Facebook group at” I think it’s forward slash FB or something like that. “Second thing, join the YouTube channel, and third thing look at the web [inaudible 00:11:38].”

This really converts that traffic into that Facebook group, and that’s allowed according to Udemy rules. My boys change in the future, but they like Facebook groups because it fosters communication and everything, so you can get that traffic into your Facebook group. I can tell you though some additional pros and cons of that strategy, if you’d like.

Cindy: Absolutely.

Eric: The thing about the Facebook group, so it’s good and it’s bad. I like being very transparent, I don’t like biasing people whether it’s with my courses or stuff, I like to be extremely transparent. The good thing is at this point I think I’ve over 2000 or 3000 people part of the Facebook group. Now the bad thing is the engagement isn’t as high as it could be. There are two reasons for that.

Number one, and then that’s something that people can easily fix. They maybe have been neglecting sometimes posting and then things like that to keep out the engagement. People, if you are really focused on the Facebook group, you’ll do fine, but the second reason and this is the good reason just so you understand how Udemy works, is in the beginning when you post your Udemy course, you are going to give out free coupons for at least the first 1000, 2000 students. Why? Because it’s social proof, so when you get those freebie seekers in there, they are not the most quality people going into your Facebook group, and the Facebook group algorithm picks that up.

If you don’t have quality people in your Facebook group that are not really [engaging 00:13:26], when you post it, it’s not going to show up on their newsfeed as much as if it’s a real tight-knit community of let’s say 100, 200, 300 people that paid $100 dollars or something like that. Just going through like the pros and cons of how that Facebook strategy works, with the email opt-ins you can control that much more easily than you can the Facebook algorithm.

Cindy: Right, but with Udemy you can’t just send them straight to an opt-in.

Eric: No.

Cindy: On the final video that you do, you can do like a bonus video, can’t you, but many people actually get to that. On the Udemy when you create a Udemy course, on the last video you are able to put in some pitch, but it’s got to be a low key pitch, right?

Eric: Exactly. You could pitch your other products and things of that nature. Now like you said, some people get there, and the statistics are a little skewed because you see the overall statistics, a lot of these people got in there for free into your course, which also means that they might not get, although especially those people, the people that paid are much more likely to complete the entire course. Those are the people that are going to additionally buy more products, so it’s still good to put that in the last video, your other products and then things of that nature, but that’s why I try to frontload the Facebook group, have my URL everywhere, so that I put that DigiStrats brand into people’s minds, and then people start clicking, typing it in the URL box all that.

Cindy: That is awesome. That’s a really good strategy of how you’re being just very direct. I’ve created a Udemy course and I didn’t really follow-up with, I didn’t even think to push them into a Facebook group. That’s really definitely saying that I think I’ll probably have to implement then.

Eric: Cindy, do you have a Facebook group right now?

Cindy: Do you build a special Facebook group for each course or do you just have one for each? Because I do have a Facebook group, but I don’t really push people to it and I’m not very active in it. It’s one of those things that I know I need to and I’ll probably get around to it at some stage.

Eric: Exactly, exactly. Same thing, I completely agree about the being active part, even though I try to be as active as possible, but no, I don’t build a separate group for each course. There would be no way I could manage that.

Cindy: Having one central one and they are just pushing them all in, that would be good, I guess. That makes sense and a lot easier to …

Eric: Exactly, exactly.

Cindy: Do you have multiple courses then, I’m guessing? How many courses do you have on Udemy?

Eric: I believe it’s at 12 right now. I do have multiple courses, and pretty much all of those courses it’s, I just wanted to make all of those courses. That’s the cool part is that I just went through and I said, “Look, let me distill all of my copy knowledge into copy course, and all my webinar knowledge into webinar course, all of my affiliate marketing knowledge and then into an affiliate marketing course.” That’s the way I went about it.

Cindy: I’m not sure on the rules of Udemy, are you able to – if you are creating content for Udemy courses, are exclusive to Udemy or can you use anywhere in business? Eric: No. You can use it anywhere else.

Cindy: That’s a big thing too. You can basically take any content from anywhere then that you’ve created and put onto Udemy or the other way around.

Eric: Exactly, exactly. Now I want to warn people, or not warn, but just advise them about doing that is when you create your content, you need to have that in mind. It’s like when you are creating a business, like I was saying, the other thing that I do is buy and sell businesses. When you create a business, if you want to sell it and exit out of it, you need to create the business with that in mind from the beginning.

Same thing with this content because often times if you’re doing maybe a webinar course, maybe some courses and you don’t use the right audio, you don’t use the right microphone, you might be clipping, they are not going to accept the course on Udemy. They do have very high quality standards, and you want to plan that out correctly ahead of time. However, if you do get approved by Udemy, you can pretty much repurpose and reuse that course almost everywhere else.

Cindy: With that in mind, it’s probably a good idea to create it based on Udemy’s restrictions or guidelines, I guess, and then repurpose it for other stuff after.

Eric: Exactly, that’s usually what I recommend for people to do. Even with that, like if you are creating slides or things, a lot of people make this mistake. They’ll start talking about Udemy because they think that Udemy is the only place where their courses are going to be hosted and they are creating it. Say, “Oh, you are a Udemy student within the audio.” Obviously someone else is listening to that and they came through a different channel, they are like, “What’s going on?” Just be careful, be very mindful about how you are targeting your message.

Cindy: Do you use, do you repurpose any of your content in other platforms?

Eric: There is some, there are sometimes occasional times when I do that. For example, I did create a product. It was a product that we launched, it was our YouTube Outro Funnel Creator product, and one of our upsells was a course. Now a couple of weeks before that, I actually created that course first for Udemy and then I used that same course as part of my product funnel.

Cindy: Awesome. In a previous podcast recently with Earl Flormata we talked about content repurposing, and he talks a lot about creating a video and then different ways that you can use that video, exploit the transcripts and do all kinds of things and use that content. If you are creating it for a Udemy course, then there is, you are actually putting all the work in to create some amazing content, repurposing it as much as possible kind of makes sense. I think like that strategy together with Udemy could work really, really well.

Eric: Actually you bring up a good point, and since we are talking about traffic, I do want to bring this up. Now let’s say you create a Udemy course, I don’t know maybe it’s going to be 50 videos or 30 videos depending on your style and how you like to structure things, why not use that for YouTube traffic? What do I mean? You’re already doing these content pieces, so why not take a couple of them and publish them to your YouTube channel. Then on your YouTube channel when you publish it, what do you have, what link do you have right underneath, you link it back to Udemy course or your website, wherever you want to do it, repurposing that to do this like curation strategy.

Cindy: Or send them through to your own website, lead capture, and then push through to wherever you want really. You can throw them to …

Eric: Exactly.

Cindy: Over the course with a coupon or capture whatever you like there, I guess.

Eric: Exactly. When we talk about actually podcast, I’ve started doing that, but haven’t completed it, just because I’ve caught up with some other projects, but what I plan on doing is I haven’t launched my podcast yet, but doing it as this type of because we are talking about traffic is like a triple strategy. Invite my entire community to a webinar, that can be done by Google Hangouts. People get to listen to it live, then automatically Google Hangouts takes it, turns it into a YouTube video, it’s on your YouTube channel, you get more traffic there, and then you strip out the MP3 audio and turn it into your podcast as well.

Then if you want, you can even take it a step further, get that transcribed and use that, publish it to your blog plus put the video of that on top and the podcast of that on top, and then you just have this all-around strategy to really push your content out and get traffic from multiple places. That’s what I’m planning on doing in let’s say about two months, I want to wrap up a couple of other projects.

Cindy: Two months seems the magical golf for everyone right now that everybody is going on.

Eric: Exactly, exactly.

Cindy: Have you got any final tidbits that you can share about getting traffic from Udemy?

Eric: Sure. What I’m actually going to do, Cindy, we didn’t talk about this, but I just came up with this idea on this podcast. What I’m going to do is I’m going to give you a link, I don’t know we are going to limit this probably maybe to 50 people, I don’t know. I’ll let you choose but probably to around 50 people. I have a course about how to create Udemy courses.

Cindy: Oh, perfect.

Eric: I never published it online on Udemy, and I sold it actually as more of a coaching program for about $4.99 and $6.99. I’m going to give that to, there is no opt-in required or anything, and anything like that, but I’ll give that to maybe let’s say 50 of your people for free, first- come first-serve.

Cindy: That is awesome.

Eric: They can just a take a look at that.

Cindy: Thank you so much, Eric. I’m sure people are going to get a huge kick out of that. You guys that are listening, I’m going to have a link.

If you are listening through iTunes, come over to and be one of the first 50 people, so grab that link. You just need to look for Eric Weiss’ podcast and the post on and come and grab that. Thank you so much, that’s awesome. I’m sure that’s going to make a lot of people super- happy.

Eric: Thank you for having me here, Cindy.
Cindy: Thank you for being here, I’ll talk again with you soon. Eric: Take care.

Cindy: Bye.

Cindy: Hi Delilah. It is fantastic to have you here on the show. For those guys who don’t know about you, and they haven’t quite met you or bumped into you on Facebook, or Skype, who is Delilah Taylor?Delilah: Thank you Cindy. I am so honored to be here. You don’t know how much I’ve seen you over this time that I’ve been in internet marketing, and I was thrilled when you asked me to do this. As far as me my name is Delilah Taylor. I live in the States, and I do JV management so product launchers whether it be info products, digital products, software, plugins I help them find affiliates to promote their offers for them, to get targeted traffic to bring in sales.

Cindy: Excellent. That is great. How long have you been doing this? Delilah: Right at year now. I’ve been doing JV management right at a year. Cindy: What made you go, I think I’ll start doing JV management?

Delilah: It’s funny. I actually started out doing products myself, and that was my very first product came out November of 2014, and I was one of those really struggling people. I had a couple of products, and right about that time after I had my first couple of products, Marketing Mayhem came about, which is huge event in 2015, and it was in San Diego, which I’m in the state of San Diego … I’m on the East Coast, and San Diego is on the West Coast. I was still broke. I was still learning how to do this. I was one of the people that did not get to go. I literally could not afford to go but a couple of very good friends of mine where at Marketing Mayhem, and they were launching a product while they were at Marketing Mayhem. I was at home and they were like really busy because they were actually working at Marketing Mayhem. Can you please, we will pay you. Just do some of this for us. I actually was at home during Marketing Mayhem and started doing their promotion for them, and from there it just took off.

It was crazy how many people started contacting me going, “Hey, do you do JV management?” That’s how it really all started.

Cindy: They really is a need for good, quality JV like JV people.

Delilah: That was what was so weird because apparently it was this whole niche within the niche that just nobody had found. I was overrun all over a sudden. It was wild. I love it. It works out well for me because I like to talk to people.

Cindy: Well, yeah. Tell me when it comes to doing a launch, what is your sequence? How do you actually get started? You need a JV page, right, so maybe let’s talk about the anatomy of a JV page. What should a JV page have?

Delilah: At the top, you want to always have whatever it is that the JVs want. A JV page in an essence is a sales page but you are selling to the JVs. You are not selling them the product but you are selling them on the idea of why they want to be a JV for you.

Cindy: Can you pause for just two seconds? What I just realized is we probably have … We haven’t even really mentioned what JVs are, and what a launch is. Maybe we should do that first.

Delilah: Sure.

Cindy: Did you want to just briefly explain product launches, and …

Delilah: Yeah. Absolutely. A JV literally means joint venture partner, which in most instances means a person that is partnering with you on a launch, and they put in something as far as help creating it, whatnot but most people, and I am well used to the acronym JV as for affiliate, which means that it’s a commission to salesperson. They don’t have anything to do with creation or anything else but they are a commission salesperson. I guess, mainly because JV is easier to spell, and it’s a heck a lot of easier to say …

Cindy: Yes, exactly.

Delilah: … and it fits better on a page, and you know. Cindy: Right.

Delilah: That’s JV and a launch is after you’ve created a product whether it be informational, a software plugin, whatever, and you want to put it out to the world. You always want that build up that gets people excited, let’s them know hey, this is coming, and it’s coming on this day just like the movies or anything else. When a big movie is coming out you don’t hear about it the day that it comes out at the theater. You start hearing about it a month before because they want to really build up that excitement.

Cindy: You start seeing trailers, you start seeing [front 00:05:02].

Delilah: Exactly. So that’s a product launch.

Cindy: Okay, thank you very much. Sorry guys. We just get so carried away. Then what as product launchers, we put out a JV page, and we tell affiliates to come and sign up. Tell us, let’s go back to what we were talking about before. A JV page has what on it? Why don’t you tell us?

Delilah: A JV page would tell the affiliate why they want to promote for you, what they are going to get out of it, what they’re … Why they are going to be … Why it’s going sell to their people whoever they are promoting it to because the whole point is they want to make commissions. If you are sending out a product that nobody wants, the JVs don’t want it, obviously. You want to have on there generally a video that’s telling them why they want to promote it, what they are going to get out of it, if there’s any sales [contest 00:06:01] what their commissions are going to be, how quickly they are going to get paid on it.

Those quick things, and then down through the page you are going to give them information about what is in the product, does it have any bonuses in it, are there any sales? Are they going to have a chance to make even additional money? Items like that, and how to contact you, how to stay informed about the launch. They’ll be information there for them to put in their email, and where to go get their JV link because every product launch has to be on a sales platform, and there’s multiple sales platforms out there. You’ll connect that get your JV link here to your sales platform.

Cindy: Right, and you want to make it really clear.

Delilah: Absolutely.

Cindy: You want to have a video so affiliates can connect with you. You want to have an opt-in form so that you can follow up. You want to have very clear dates, and like times of when it’s going to launch, bonuses if you are doing it, JV prices, and just some way to go and get their affiliate link, I’m thinking.

Delilah: Yep.

Cindy: Once you get people on the [inaudible 00:07:10] do you do a lot of follow-up? How do you follow up with affiliates, or do you just automate it through the system, or do you have … Do you do one- on-one connection? What’s your way of doing it?

Delilah: I actually do both. For me, relationships are huge. You can email people all day long and then they may or may not get it but if you have that personal connection, I do a lot through Facebook Messenger. I get to know these affiliates individually, and the little things. What’s going on in their life, and what have they got going on? They become my friends.

Cindy: Absolutely.

Delilah: They truly do, and then Skype is also a huge one. I do regular follow ups because a lot of times they’ll get their JV the link, and the product launch may not be for three, four weeks out. You’ve got to keep it fresh on their mind and let them know of any updates because there are things that happen from time to time. Hey, is it? We’ve got to move it back 12 hours, or you know, or our email broke but we are fixing it. It’s okay. Things go wrong. You want to make sure they are aware of that. Sometimes you’ll run an extra bonus, sometimes you’ll start the launch off a day or two ahead of time for a couple of JVs just so you can get the pre-launch, and conversion rates. Do specials for them. There’s all sorts of things that you can do but you want to have that excitement and that build up with the JVs even before you ever even get to the product launch itself.

Cindy: Yeah, yeah, something that you were talking about before we actually got on this call was that when you are doing a product launch you are basically running two launches. You are running the launch obviously for the customers because you want to sell it but you are running a separate launch because affiliates aren’t really going to get behind the product unless they really believe in it, and they believe it’s something that first their listeners are going to want to go and see, and it’s going to benefit their list but also that it’s going to make them money. Something that they can get excited about and behind. I just wanted to throw that in there because I think some people forget they take on a JV launch like it’s just tucked on. It’s something that you do because you are supposed to do, and you just through a link up there, and affiliates will magically come but they won’t. They need to be excited about it, and they need to believe in your product and connect with you. When you talk about relationships it’s something that a lot of people really under estimate I think.

Delilah: Absolutely, and one of my favorite things to do, and I do this with every single launch, and I suggest everybody do it. I will start a

Google doc sheet, and down one side I’ll have a list of every person that I want to speak with, and then beside that whether I’ve contacted them or not contacted them yet. When I talk to them notes on what we talked about, did they get their JV linked, did they … They want follow up? Do they want review access? Is there something special that they want to go with it?

So every time I talk with somebody I can go back and forth between that sheet and know what exactly [crosstalk 00:10:34].

Cindy: I used to do that, and I’ve recently changed over. I’m not sure if you’ve heard of it. There’s a platform called Trello, and it lets you actually create groups, and you create little files for each person, and then you can drag it into a group. If you’ve connected like you’ve made your first connection you can just drag it and drop it into this group, and then you can update it, add notes. It’s basically like using Google docs but prettier, and you get to drag, and drop, and put notes, you can add files, and all that sort of stuff to it. I don’t know if that helps but you might to do that.

Delilah: It does. I want to look at that. Thank you. [crosstalk 00:11:14]. I learned something new. That’s awesome.

Cindy: Yeah, I learned about that when I was doing a launch with Jay … Forgot his name now. Jay. Crap, this is what happens. Anyway, Jay.

Jay and I we launched a product together, and he introduced me to the platform, and yeah. It’s really good. It’s really straightforward, easy to use in and it’s free so there’s an added bonus.

Delilah: Even better. All right.

You do a lot of connections, do you do any … I know on Skype there’s a lot of broadcasting you can do, and Facebook groups has a lot of those kinds of things. Do you do that, and if so, how do you schedule it? What is your sequencing for that?

I do the Facebook Groups. There’s a lot of them. Normally, I will start out with a video because Facebook has to do a video now. Those sites are awesome. They are very eye grabbing if you do it right. I will go through the JV groups in Facebook, and I’ll start out with a video in it. It’s usually two weeks before the launch, and then normally I’ll update it at five days, three days, sometimes 24 hours, and then obviously, normally I’ll wait until after we are a couple of hours in after live that way, especially I can put up stats because some conversion rates, some things like that are great for pulling in last minute JVs. There are some people who won’t join until it’s already been running for a few hours, or a day because they want to see, they want to make sure that it’s actually converting before they’ll actually jump on. I like to have that in there.

Cindy: Is there anything else that you do to drive traffic? Do you do email follows up or what’s your …

Delilah: Yes, yes. I also do email follow ups regularly. The email sequences normally I’ll start at about … We’ll do save the date launch, obviously, “Hey, this is coming,” and then one or two in between, and then about four days out, 48 hours out prior to launch, 24 hours before, and then an hour before launch, and then when we go live at launch. Then it even continues because I want to people saying, “We’ve launched. That’s not it. [inaudible 00:13:55] we still have got to keep going. There’s still more.”

Especially if you are running a competition and that kind of thing, yeah, and you want to keep people excited about it, and sending traffic. I just …

Something else we were talking about because we were talking about to JV … Building up your JV to list is huge especially if you are going to be launching on a regular basis, three, four times a year, or some people launch more than that. Either way just you want a JV email list because you want to have contact information,

Delilah: excuse me, and one of the things that I really suggest, and I learned this not too long ago myself that it works out really great is your sales platform, where they go to replace their JV link. When they go to replace their JV link on their sales platform, whichever platform it is they have a section in their [work 00:15:00]. You could put a note to the potential JV, and leave a section for them to leave notes for you. In your note section, you can tell them, “Hey, unless we already know you make sure you give us your contact information. In this section, put in your email address, Skype address,” whatever, anything you want.

That way because even on the JV page where you have the area where you ask them for their email address, a lot of times they won’t but when it comes to doing it there on that JV page on the sales platform they will. That just gave you automatic permission to take that email address, and add them into your contact list.

Cindy: Okay.

Delilah: Yeah.

Cindy: That’s something that I’ve done, yeah. That’s cool. Interesting. All right, are there other things you can share? Any other ways that you drive traffic for an affiliate promotion?

Delilah: Let’s see, we went over the JV page, the JV groups.

Cindy: Something that I was just thinking of before you dive into that, you mentioned creating a video, and a video is fantastic for getting your face, and we’ve talked about this before about getting your face in front of your audience, and really connecting because it is about relationship. Like we said but Facebook videos are so freaking cheap, and I’m not sure if you do this right now but you can get for like less than a cent per view, really targeted stuff. You can drop a pixel on your JV page, and then you can send them … Actually send people that have come, shown interest in your JV page your JV video for less than a cent, and having your face there, in front of them really helps. I’m sure if you do that but it’s seriously [crosstalk 00:16:47].

Delilah: Yeah, I’m actually …

Cindy: Not very many people do that.


Delilah: I’m actually glad you brought that up. The last two, three promotions I’ve ran video Ads.

Cindy: Okay, yep.

Delilah: Yeah, and those were phenomenal, and targeted those in getting video views. It’s even got it set up to where you can put the link to your JV page where it shows up right at the end of the video.

Cindy: Really. That is cool.

Delilah: Yeah, the videos are actually clickable. That is cool.

You can obviously put the link within the post itself but then as you are running the video Ad, when the video ends it actually shows up the link.

Hence a link.

Cindy: They can click right on it. That is cool.

Delilah: Yeah.

Cindy: Yep, you can also do like … I just forgot what I was going to say. I’m so on a roll today. No, I was just thinking about sending JV videos. No, it was really, really cool too. Never mind. If I remember I’ll throw it in there. Dammit. I had [crosstalk 00:18:01]. No, it was really cool. Let me think. No, I don’t know. It’s gone.

Delilah: The biggest question that I get a lot of time is where do you find them? Where do you find the JVs, and the easiest place for me is … There’s a number of them but it’s normally not in the same spots that everybody else looks. Of course, everybody goes to the Facebook Groups, and sure you can put the stuff there in the Facebook but I like to go to the members section. You can highlight. Some of these groups have like 5,000 people in them, and you just sit there, and they are literally start [fronting 00:18:49] people. Don’t spam them. Dear god just do spam them but send them a friendly message. Be simple people, seriously because that’s what it’s all about. They start out that way.

Another thing is the really big launches. All right, there’s been a couple of them this week but they’ll post throughout their Facebook timeline, and you can see as they making the post about this huge launches that have sold 100,000 or what not people make … The JVs will come through, and they’ll make comments on this launch stuff. Guess who those people are?

Cindy: They are the affiliates, and often sometimes people now it’s trendy to tag all of your affiliates into a post. If there’s a launch they pour out like a proof screenshot. If it’s just on $100,000 in 12 hours or something, people want to know that sort of stuff. People will tag in their best affiliates, and the people that they want to grab their attention. Yeah, that’s like a really good point. Facebook Groups, and tagging people.

Delilah: Awesome.

Cindy: I remember what I was going to say. Can I dive back to that?

Delilah: Yes.

Cindy: It’s so tiny but I actually think it could be useful because when we are talking about video marketing, and how it’s so cheap to just record a video of yourself. Even if you are not awesome on video, or whatever, just do it because it’s worth doing it but you can import. As you are capturing email lists, you can import those as an extra audience. If you are not capturing, or if you’ve had a whole bunch of different launches, you’ve got all of these JVs that you can use for a targeted audience, and then your clicks and everything are super cheap, and insanely targeted. I was just going to say don’t forget to export your JV list from AWeber or wherever you are putting them, and import them as a Facebook audience.

Delilah: Yes, that works … That’s how I targeted my audience.

Cindy: Nice.

Delilah: I’m glad you brought that out because I’d honestly forgotten about it but yeah especially if you’ve got that JV list, that email list that you can pop that right in there for your Facebook Ads, and it works perfectly.

That is awesome. Do you have any other little hidden tidbits that we might not have covered so far?

I probably do. [crosstalk 00:21:14]. There’s so much.

Cindy: Oh my gosh. If you are listening on the 7-Figure Furnace, and if there is any extra information you really want to see, if you are think of anything you can contribute that we haven’t covered here then throw it in the comments.

We would love to see you on the 7-Figure Furnace blog, if you came via iTunes, or something, and you are not seeing the blog, go to, and find us, throw your comments over there, and Delilah and I will be there to answer any questions if you have them. We’ll come and meet you, and whatever in the comments section.

It has been really fantastic having you here Delilah. I think we’ll wrap it up right now. I’ll look forward to seeing you at the next marketing event. I think it’s next week, yeah, we get to catch up.

Delilah: It is. I’m so excited I can’t wait. I actually get to go to Marketing Mayhem this year.

Cindy: I know. It’s awesome. I will see you then, and thank you so much for joining me on the podcast.

Delilah: Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it. All right. Take care.

Cindy: Bye.

Cindy: Anthony, it’s great to have you here on the 7 Figure Furnace show. For people who are listening in today and have never heard about you, why don’t you tell us a little bit about yourself, who Anthony is, and what do you have to share today?

Anthony: Thank you so much for having me, I’m very, very grateful. It’s always a pleasure to connect with you and it’s always a pleasure to introduce myself to new people who may not know of myself. I guess the best way for me to get started, and I’m just going to make this really short because it could turn in long is I got started into this whole Internet marketing thing back in 2002. I needed to generate leads for my real estate brokerage firm.

At the time, I launched the brokerage firm in downtown Boston, it’s very expensive to start a real estate company in downtown Boston. I had to be very clever about how I got things off the ground, office space and all that stuff. To market in the Boston Globe newspaper to take out a tiny ad like something about this big is about $6000 a week. It’s not cheap.

Cindy: No.

Anthony: Not cheap. I had to figure out a clever way to get in front of my audience at the time, people looking to move into Boston, and I just got together in the sense that I realized that most of the people that were looking to move to Boston were going online to do it. Back then Yahoo was the big search engine, Google had started to come on to the map, but Yahoo had the dominant presence, MSN was second and Google was third.

I went to Barnes & Noble … Actually I don’t have it here in this. I went to Barnes & Noble and I bought a book this thick, the size of a phonebook. Back then it was called Search Engine Positioning, it wasn’t called Search Engine Optimization like it’s called today. It was winter 2002, I went through that book, I locked myself up in my apartment and I went through that book, and I learned how to buy domain names and build websites and do all that crazy stuff.

By spring of 2003, so a few short months later I had a little over 30 websites on the first page of the search engines for major Boston real estate search [inaudible 00:02:32]. My business just went boom, it blew up. It was insane because it was the perfect storm because President Bush had just cut interest rates, 9/11 had just happened, and so that just caused the real estate market to just explode, and I was in the right place at the right time. People were not doing a lot of SEO back then, and I was very clever in how I launched the sites.

I would launch sites that were around building names, so people living in big cities are looking to live in a specific building or a specific high-rise, and so I bought like the Ritz Towers, Boston Ritz- Carlton had a set of towers in Boston, and I bought the Albert Pope and the Belvedere I learned how to pull the MLS data. I’d hire someone that could do that for me. I had the idea of pulling the MLS data just for those specific sites. People would visit the sites and there would be information about what was for sale in that specific building, and they just loved it. It just totally took off.

Cindy: It took off. You’ve been doing SEO for awhile now because that led into quite a few different SEO adventures, I guess.

Anthony: Yes, it has. I think at the day SEO was really just lead generation, that’s all it is, because it’s always changing and I laugh at all the people that make such a big deal about all the updates that happened today because it’s like this has been going on for me for a long time, I’ve been playing this game. My first big update, and you all can Google it too, it’s on Google, it was called The Florida Update, and it was Google’s first big update, and it slammed all of my sites, all of them. It was pretty devastating at the time. I was like, I had people working for me, so this was November of 2003. I’m sitting pretty spring of 2003, crushing it. We are getting anywhere from 100 to 200 leads per day.

Cindy: It’s high paying leads.

Anthony: It’s not cheap to live in Boston back then. Jesus, one bedroom condo was three or $400,000, 1000 a square foot. These are great leads. From spring all the way to November I was like, I just thought, wow, this is [inaudible 00:04:55] to an end. I’ve had a [painter 00:04:58] here and I was just flying high, making crap loads of money, and then The Florida Update came and just destroyed all of the sites. It was rough, I didn’t know what to do. The first thing I did was I started learning about doing paid pay-per-click pay traffic. Back then it was Overture was the game in town, and they used to do the paid traffic management for Yahoo and MSN.

Yahoo actually bought Overture out, so now what you see on MSN adCenter like on Bing ads and what you see on Yahoo ads, that was Overture. They bought that whole technology out and they became MS … It was Yahoo ads first and then Microsoft bought Yahoo and now it’s MSN adCenter. I immediately started to like, I had to go learn how to do pay-per-click traffic, and to keep the leads coming in because at this point I had agents working for me. I wasn’t taking all those leads to myself, it would’ve been too overwhelming, I’d have been wasting them, so we had miles to feed.

I immediately started learning paid traffic, which was a blessing in disguise. At the time I was frustrated, but it was great because I got to learn that. The debacle of one thing led to the learning of another thing. That’s a common theme in my life, like every time something falls apart, when things are going really good, it’s frustrating because you got to get back on the horse. You are like, it’s nice to be on cruise control.

Cindy: Yes.

Anthony: Then, so I actually get knocked off the horse as you know. Cindy: It’s perhaps like …

Anthony: That’s when we grow.

Cindy: You are not the first entrepreneur that I’ve heard say that. I think pretty much anyone that is successful especially in internet marketing, anything online because things do change so dramatically and you can think you just got this.

Anthony: Fast.

Cindy: Then all of a sudden it just, it stops working, and you’ve got to just adapt. That’s basically all this is, it’s going to do well online is just do with it, adjust, adapt and then reshape what you are doing, which for some of us, I don’t know about you, but I get a real kick out of that. Even though there is that whole moment, and I might have 24 hours of what the hell just happened. What am I going to do? It keeps you alive, it keeps you awake.

Anthony: Totally. Listen, if it was easy and smooth, it would be so boring. Exactly. [Crosstalk 00:07:28].

You know that. As soon as someone who is struggling right now and is having a hard time maybe financially or trying to make their businesses take off, doesn’t understand that. They are like, “How could that be enjoyable? What are you talking about? I want to be bored.” You say that now, but then when you can do whatever you want to do and we are fortunate, we can do whatever we want to do when we want to do, we work hard too.

I came into the office today at 1:00 but I’ll be here till 10:00, but I’m okay with that. When I wanted to come in, and I’m doing what I want to do, [inaudible 00:07:59] my problems, I’m not dealing with someone else’s problems and working for them. It’s like the way that I look at it is, it’s a struggle and it can be a pain in the ass and it’s enjoyable, like you say the growth and all that, but if we were bored, you can do whatever you want to do. You are not challenged, you are only bored out of your mind …

[crosstalk 00:08:20] you a little bit.

For people who are just starting, it can be a little bit frustrating because it does feel like things move so fast, and sometimes you haven’t actually had a chance to grasp that thing. You are trying to find your thing, and by the time you actually grasp it, then everything has moved on, and you got to try and capture something else new. I don’t know, I’d really like to see if we can [crosstalk 00:08:45].

Eventually you start [crosstalk 00:08:46], the more you poke at it you eventually start to see the matrix. That’s what I call like The Matrix like the movie, when Neo couldn’t see it. He went to the Oracle and she is like, “No, you are not the chosen one,” and he was devastated, and Morpheus was like, “No, you are.” When did he see

Anthony: The Matrix? He saw The Matrix when he was under duress when Morpheus was strapped up, about ready to die and in the chair, and all of a sudden he saw The Matrix clear. It just …

Cindy: It was clear and it was just right there. It had been there all along, but it’s …

Anthony: Exactly, the whole gun to the head thing.

Cindy: [crosstalk 00:09:20].

Anthony: That John Carlton talks about, gun to the head marketing, like someone put a gun to your head and said, “You got to have 50 grand by tomorrow.” Oh, you are like. You know what I’m talking about, right?

Cindy: Oh yeah.

Anthony: [You do 00:09:32].

Cindy: Why not be able to try and bring some really cool content because you really know a lot of stuff about SEO and in particular video marketing, you’ve done some great things to video marketing. Today on the show where do you want to start off, what’s a good, what sort of things do you have to share with our listeners who are interested in getting started in video marketing? How do they start? Mainly, probably let’s keep it specific to driving traffic using video.

Anthony: There is many ways to do it, just like there is a million ways to make $1 million, there is a ton of ways to leverage video for traffic, for all kinds of stuff, obviously. I guess what I’ll share with you and everyone here is we are not here to save the wells, we are here to make money, we are all here to make money. Obviously we can do good with that money, we can give back and we can put it into our business, and we can go on vacations, we can buy awesome stuff. I like to buy awesome stuff. Who doesn’t?

What I’m going to do is just share really rapid way for everyone to make anywhere from, you could do mid three figures to four figures within 7 to 10 days. It’s not challenging. When I share this with people, I want to preface that it’s not something you have to do for the rest of your life. I think when you share an opportunity with somebody and they are assessing the opportunity, in their mind the first thing that they do is they are like, they start to hear your opportunity and they are like, “Oh, I don’t want to do that because they start to think they have to do it for the rest of their life.”

Cindy: It’s a commitment saying, and you have to [crosstalk 00:11:16] into that.

Anthony: I don’t do that. As entrepreneurs we always need kick start our cash, we always need cash. I don’t care how wealthy you are, I’ve met a lot of wealthy guys, everybody goes through a cash crunch in their business. Even guys that are like multimillionaires, they could have a lot of money invested in a certain project or in stock or real estate, and the cash is there right now and they’re waiting for the cash to come back.

This is one of my go-to methods for generating lump sums of cash when I need it really, really quick. It works good. It’s like Brad Goss told me this once a great analogy. Years ago I was not liking launching, I’ve been burnt out, I’ve been launching stuff since 2008, and I discovered the Warrior Forum and then it was like launching even more, like launch, launch, launch. It’s like, ah, I got tired of it, and I wanted a break from it, but the cash is amazing, as you know from launching. I was just really frustrated at that time, this is a few years ago, I was just frustrated with launching and Brad Goss is like, “Listen, Anthony, sometimes you’ve got to be like the stripper trying to get her college degree, and you got to do a few more lap dances.”

Cindy: Oh gosh. That definitely sounds like a Brad analysis.

Anthony: Totally a Brad Goss comment. It’s so funny because at the time I didn’t want to hear what he had to say. I’m like, ah, but he was right.

It was like, at the time I needed to generate a lot of cash, and at the time I knew how to do launching really well, and even though I was annoyed with it and tired of it. When you launch a lot, it’s like when the President, the first President goes in the White House, he is all excited, new and young, and he has got regular hair, then four years later the guy looks like, what happened to him? He doesn’t look like that anymore.

Launching is like that. I was just tired of it, but I got what Brad said, I don’t want to hear it, but I got it and I look back now and I get it, what he said is really important. There are definitely times when you got to do a few more lap dances, even though you don’t want to do them, you got to do them. It’s okay, it’s like, its good for you to laugh at it. That’s what I do. I use it as humor and I’m like, “Oh, I got to do a few more lap dances,” and it’s eventually going. When I don’t want to do something, I don’t want to do.

What I share with everybody here today, this generates a lot of money. The people I’ve taught it to, it doesn’t just work for me, I’ve taught it to a lot of my protégés. I have one of my students just write me the other day posted on Facebook that he went on and [often made 00:13:41] $11,000 using this method, so it’s super uber powerful.

Cindy: I’m excited!

Anthony: It’s simply like, something that’s like, doing affiliate marketing is awesome, but the problem with affiliate marketing is it’s a reactive business model. It’s not really a proactive business model. There is a lot of variables that have to happen for you to make money as an affiliate. You have to pick the right offer, you have to pick [crosstalk 00:14:06].

Cindy: A lot of them have no control.

Anthony: You are also dependent on the product creator at any time, you could find an offer that’s winning. At any time they could shut the offer down, which is really frustrating because you spend a lot of time trying to find a winning offer. There is a lot of things that go into it. It’s like a reactive business model. If you are in a situation where you needed to drum-up some cash, you need a proactive business model. You need something that, you put the effort in, you get the result, like easy. That’s the way to go. Then you can do later once the proactive business model is making you some money, then you can go and tinker in affiliate marketing and go add that income stream [crosstalk 00:14:40].

Cindy: You can be [inaudible 00:14:40] stripping to your law degree. Yep.

Anthony: Exactly. When I show this model to some people, they are just like, “Oh, I don’t want to do that. I don’t want to deal with local clients or any of that stuff.” Here is the thing, let’s first talk about positioning.

Positioning is very important as you know. I was not aware of how powerful positioning was until I got into this, make money online market. I kind of knew but I wasn’t really aware of it because when you are selling real estate, I was selling luxury real estate, I positioned my brand that way and all that but the luxury property is really what did to positioning, like people with spouse, they’d be like, “Holy shit, I want to buy this, I want to put on offer right on this.”

That did the positioning, I didn’t really because I wasn’t selling me or any of my, I was selling my brand and my company but it wasn’t to the extent that we have to do it on the digital world. The digital world positioning is very important, the whole guru [isn’t 00:15:38] thing is very important, and I wasn’t aware of that. I wasn’t aware of it like I was when I came here.

The big thing is, the most important thing you have to understand is in our business stuff becomes commoditized really easily because information is accessible to us all the time, in our email inboxes opportunities all the time, it becomes commoditized. You have to remember that to a business owner what we do in our world to them has tons of value, way more value than we think it does.

For example, if you think about a video and a video about a business, to us it’s no big deal. We have all these opportunities in our inboxes to sell videos to businesses all day long, but if you look at it and you look at it from the position of the business owner and you look at the positioning, for them a video about their business is a big deal, it’s like a commercial. It’s just like a commercial. What are commercials? Commercials are usually pretty … Hint, hint, expense.

Cindy: Expense. Yes, [inaudible 00:16:45].

Anthony: That’s how a business owner perceives a commercial. If they were going to go to their local television station and get a commercial made, need big money. You have to think about it from their perspective, their positioning, not yours. Think video, about a business positioning there is commercial equals expensive.

What you do is, easiest thing in the world to do is I always tell people, make a list of every single business you visited in the last 90 days. Just go that far back. If you have a hard time thinking about it, go through your debit card statement, go through your credit card statement, look at the businesses that you’ve visited. Usually you’ve visited a barber, usually my wife she visits the hair salon, she gets her pedicures, her manicures, she gets the dogs groomed, we go to the dentist.

Cindy: [crosstalk 00:17:38].

Anthony: Right there I’ve already listed like five or six things, so pick ten of them. Pick ten of them. These are businesses, try to stay away from the big corporate ones right now. I’ve done this with the big corporate ones. It just takes a long time to get through the right departments of people. You want to be able to focus on the businesses that are like the mom-and-pop stores.

Now here is the thing, you are going to do this in such a way that it’s not even going to seem like selling. They are going to actually ask you about it. Even if they say no that they don’t want your service, you’ve created an asset that’s going to end up becoming a billboard for you to generate more business. Here is how it works, very simple. You basically make a simple review video of these businesses that you visited. You want to do it for them because you are familiar with their businesses, it’s not hard, it’s very simple to do. You’ve been there, you’ve purchased from them, you are a customer of theirs, you can talk about their business, no problemo.

You want to make a video really simple, four steps, here is who I am. Hi there, my name is Anthony Aires, and I want to talk to you today about my dentist, Dr. Greenberg. He is absolutely unbelievable. Before Dr. Greenberg, I hated going to the dentist. Here is what Dr. Greenberg is going to do for you, he is going to make life really easy, he is going to make you comfortable in his office. Doc, he is going to put the TV for you while he cleans your teeth, and then he is not going to charge you a lot of money, he is actually very reasonable.

I would recommend you give Dr. Greenberg a call. He is going to help you out, he is going to do a great job with you, and he is completely honest, he doesn’t try to sell you more stuff than you need, and I enjoyed him. The reason I’m making this video for you is because he is a small family-operated business, and I love working with family-operated businesses and I think Dr. Greenberg deserves a shout out, so I just wanted to let you know about it and I wanted to make this video. Give Dr. Greenberg a call, his phone number is right here on this video. That’s it.

Here is who I am, here is what it’s going to do for you. Oh no, here is what I got for you. Step one, here is who I am, here is what I got for you, here is what it’s going to do for you, here is what to do next. That’s it, that’s all the video needs to say. Once you know those four steps, it’s easy to crank these out, plus you know the businesses so you can just tie it into the business. You make a review video about the business. You slap it up on YouTube under a business name review. Dr. Greenberg, Orlando review. Rank is really easy. Not hard to rank at all. You don’t have to do any crazy backlinking, and then you just have to put the title, ‘Dr. Greenberg, Orlando, Dentist review,’ the description. ‘Dr. Greenberg, Orlando, Dentist review,’ the tag on the video. That’s it. You don’t have to do anything else.

Cindy: Easy.

Anthony: You ping it, you go to a and you ping the URL of the video and it should rank for the business pretty quickly. If it doesn’t rank, go get a little fiber gig, nothing crazy, just for some social bookmarks, a light one. You don’t need 10,000 social bookmarks, a handful of social bookmarks you’ll be fine. Get the video to rank, and then what you are going to do is you are just going to hit up Dr. Greenberg, in whichever way is most comfortable to you.

Maybe next time when you go to the dentist, as an example and you are getting a teeth cleaning, what before he does the teeth cleaning, you don’t want to do it after, you want to do it before. You just want to take out the video on your mobile phone and show him what you did for him. Just say … If it’s a barber, if you go to a best Orlando barber, if you Google ‘best Orlando barber,’ you’ll see my video comes up number one under best Orlando barber.

I do this with lots of businesses, like best iPhone screen repair, pretty much we have our maids, we do our termite guy or pool guy. We do this with everybody, and we get like free services from them. We actually barter with them, but you don’t have to barter with them. There is all kinds of stuff you can do. You can barter with them. Essentially you just want to get their attention and show them that you did this.

Most of the time you don’t even tell them that you, anything about selling it or nothing. When you show them that, most of the time they’d be like, “Whoa, how did you do that?” They don’t know how to do that. They’d be like, “Wow, how did you do that?” Then that’s when you lead in and say, “It’s what I do for a living. If you are interested …” You’ve already given them what’s called results in advance, you did something already for them for free. There is goodwill, we call this my goodwill video system. You did this for free out of the goodness of your heart. You like him as a business owner, you do business with him, you want him to get more business, that’s why you did this.

Now this keyword may not get like thousands of searches a month, but it doesn’t matter, the searches it gets are important to him. Those are important searches to him, those are people that are thinking about going to visit him, and you did something nice for his business. Then that’s when you [inaudible 00:22:09] and you say, “This is what I do. If you are interested, I can go after bigger keywords like ‘best Orlando dentist’ or ‘best Orlando cosmetic dentist’ or ‘where to get braces in Orlando?’ Those were the kinds of keywords I can go after. Is that something that would interest you?”

Then just be quiet and see what they say. If they say yes, then you could say, “All right, now is not the time to talk about it.” You always want them leaving wanting more, so you say something like, “Now is not the time, now is not a good time to talk about it. Why don’t I just get the best way for me to reach you like your email address and your phone number? What I’ll do is I’ll send you some more information. I’ll even do you a favor and I’ll get a few more videos for you on the first page of Google, just to show you how powerful this is.”

You don’t have to make that offer, you could just say the other, “I’ll just get the information to you.” Whichever way, you can either do some more videos if you want or you don’t have to. It’s up to you. Then at that point, you just connect with them via email. It’s not that hard to shoot, it’s not that hard to take that one video that you did, you could add a little bit more time to it, you could add some, at the end you could add a couple of slides that add extra time with his information.

Then what you can do is, you could take a list of all the Orlando dentist keywords and you can just take them and upload them without doing any work, any backlinking or any of that stuff, just upload them under the keywords, tag one video per one keyword, best Orlando dentist, best Orlando cosmetic dentist, one video per one keyword, and just upload it, and see which ones end up on page one.

Let’s say you do 20 of them, not all of them are going to end up on page one, but you’ll get a handful. You’ll get five or six that just went right to the first page. Those are the ones that you know that can rank, so then you could send him an email and say, “Hey, listen, I was able to get you on the first page for these five keywords.”

You always want to start a new channel for each client that you do this for, and then you just tell them, “Listen, I normally charge $1997 setup fee for doing this, but because I’m already a customer of yours and I really appreciate what you do for me and I love working with you, and I want you to get more business, I’m going to waive the setup fee today. Usually what we do is we charge $9.97 per month for three keywords, I’m going to let you have these six keywords for 9.97 a month. Any month that it comes off the first page, you don’t have to pay for it until I bring it back. All right, so when I bring it back, I’ll start charging the 9.97 again. You only pay me when it’s on, and if it comes off you don’t have to pay me. How does that sound? Is it something that would interest you?”

You can do this from email, you can do this over the phone. It’s not hard to do. It’s like, again, you don’t have to do a lot of work to those, you just do 20 of them, you pull up the 20 Orlando dentist keywords. I call it probing, you probe Google and you’ll get five or six of them that pop without you doing anything. Then you know you can rank for those keywords, so when you call him you already know, you’re not wondering, “Oh my God, what if they don’t rank and I promised them.” You already know which ones rank, you just show them. He sees it with his own two eyes, he is like, it’s like …

Cindy: It’s working.

Anthony: It’s like me giving a baby candy and saying, “No, you can’t have it.” What does that baby going to do?

Cindy: That’s going to be noisy.

Anthony: Do the same thing. You have to put a little bit of work into doing this but it’s worth it. You can do this with the first 10 people. What happens if they say no? If they say, “No, no problem,” you can actually on those review videos, you leave them up. You can put an annotation, YouTube has thing called annotation, just Google it, ‘how to do a YouTube video annotation,’ and it will tell you, and you could put an annotation over the video that says, “If you would like a video like this for your business, call or email me.” If you do these ten review videos, you’ve got 10 billboards out there.” Guess who is looking at those keywords? Guess who is Googling those keywords? Who is Googling those keywords?

Cindy: All sorts of businesspeople and people of competition.

Anthony: The competition.

Cindy: Competition.

Anthony: The competition, their customers who may also be business owners. You got ten little billboards out there working for you that now people were going to call you, and you are not doing anything. It’s not a waste, it’s never a waste of your time. These become assets for you. Even though ones that you put up for him, if you decide to leave those up for the bigger keywords, you could put a huge annotation that blocks the whole video. You can do annotations that block the whole video and you could edit the video to get rid of the sound, and then you could just have a big annotation that says, “Would you like your video here?” Call whatever. Those are big keywords. You are never wasting any time with it, you just got to turn it into an asset and you are good to go. That’s pretty much it.

Cindy: That sounds fantastic, and you’ve not only shared a traffic generation method that’s like really easy that everyone can do.

Ranking for words that are super key like that, is not hard at all. Anthony: [crosstalk 00:27:10].

Cindy: Straightaway to make money with it. This is crazy, I’ve not heard of that before.

Anthony: It’s returning income too. Five clients at 9.97 will completely change a lot of people’s lives.

Cindy: Exactly. If you are making a grand from each client, you’ve got extra money there to be able to stream. If you don’t want to do these videos yourself, you can start getting someone to help put them together or.

Anthony: Exactly.

Cindy: [crosstalk 00:27:37] you like $10 or something.

Anthony: Exactly. There is all kinds of stuff you can do. I’ll tell you when you do this for them and they see what you can do, they are going to want more. Then you can sell them more videos for more money. Now you can’t go and, couple of things I want to warn people. You can’t go and sell a pizza shop three videos or six videos for 9.97. They don’t make enough money per customer to be able to do that. You have to think about niches that make a lot of money for customer.

Like a roofer, a roofer has to change a roof, he makes like 10 to $15,000. There is a lot of money being that there. A DUI attorney, they are better than a personal injury attorney, for example, because the personal injury attorney has to wait for the case to settle, a DUI attorney gets 10 to $15,000 right upfront when someone gets caught drunk driving and they got to get out of it. They get the money right upfront.

That’s a big ticket for them to pay you nine … Think about it, they only need to get one lead, they only need to get one lead a year and they’ll still make a bit of a profit, a little bit of a profit. You have to think like that.

But you can also get connection, so if you do have a client who you managed to score who is a roofer, for example. He probably, an electrician [inaudible 00:28:53] so you could ask him, I’ll give you an extra video if you can sign up one of your friends for me, and something like …

Painters too, commercial painters. When we moved into our house, we had our house painted, it was $4000 to get our house painted. I didn’t think that it was going to be that much, the whole interior was 4Gs, and I was like damn. I did a barter with him, I got him ranked for a whole bunch of best where we live keywords and he gave me the thing for free. Instead of me paying $4000, I just went and made a bunch of review videos for him and ranked them, and I was done.

I like to barter with it. You can do, all kinds of stuff you can do with it. It’s like a specialized skill once you learn how to do it. You don’t have to go crazy building backlinks, a lot of people think that you need. There is a lot of keywords out there are really easy to rank for. Google is a big computer and it doesn’t do a great job all the time of computing. There is billions of keyword combinations out there, so you have to probe Google like an alien. I call it probing it like an alien and trying to find those really easy to rank for keywords that are out there. They may not get a lot of traffic, but sometimes people don’t care about that either.

One thing that’s important to understand is that the AdWords tool is not accurate. If you Google, ‘Is Google AdWords tool accurate?’ You’ll actually have an article from Google that says that they hold back data from you, and that that tool is only meant for ad words, it does not give you the organic data. It tells you right there, article from Google that says the Google keyword tool is giving you data relative to Google ad word searches, not organic searches.

A lot of people think that, they live and die by the Google AdWords tool. For example, if you go and see how many people are in Houston, there is 2.1 million people in Houston, Texas. If you go and Google, ‘car accident lawyer,’ there is only 170 searches a month. Do you really think that out of 2.1 million people that only 170 of them are typing into Google car accident lawyer, Houston?

Cindy: That’s not going to happen.

Anthony: Out of 2.1 million people. No way, there is no way. You can’t live and die by that. There is also what I call ego keywords, like the best keyword, it’s an ego keyword. People love coming up under ‘best Orlando barber,’ people love coming under ‘best iPhone screen repair Orlando.’ They love that stuff. They’ll show their friends. If you don’t believe me, does anybody use a phonebook anymore? Do you use a phonebook? I don’t use at all.

Cindy: No.

Anthony: I pretty much bet anyone watching this video does not use a phonebook. I wish I had a phonebook in here so I could show you how crazy the advertisements are for the back cover of the phonebook. Huge full page ad from attorneys probably cost like $20,000 to take that ad out. Nobody is using the phonebook.

Cindy: [crosstalk 00:31:42] anymore.

Anthony: What is that? That’s an ego play. He doesn’t, he can’t measure how many people are calling him from that phonebook. It’s an ego play.

Getting someone ranked for the, I love best keywords, those are awesome. When you get someone ranked for best keyword, it’s like [shouldn’t fishing 00:31:57] about. How could you not want to be ranked on Google for ‘best Orlando barber,’ ‘best Orlando dentist’?

Cindy: Exactly.

Anthony: I think you show that off to your friends. They show that to their friends, they go at a party, they are like, “Oh, I’m on Google, ‘best Orlando barber.’” Then they are like …

Cindy: That thing is, they are like, “Hey, how did you do that?” They are like, okay, so I know this guy, he is …

Anthony: That’s exactly what happens. That’s exactly what happens.

Cindy: Oh gosh. All right, [crosstalk 00:32:26] this up.

Anthony: That’s a great way to make a bunch of cash. No worries.

Cindy: Do you have any last minute little tips and stuff? You’ve shared so much.

Anthony: Just the biggest tip is, you really just have to take action. I think people sometimes think when we say to take action, they think, “Oh, we are telling them to buy something.” Obviously we want you to take action and buy our stuff, but I also mean like massive action because it all gets revealed when you do. Everyone is worried about what’s going to happen and the mistakes they are going to make. Just start taking action and … If you don’t do anything, nothing happens. If you take action, you get a result. It may not be the result that you wanted, but now you know what to do, and that’s huge, so just take action.

Cindy: Exactly. Thank you so much for being here, Anthony. For 7 Figure Furnace listeners who are here, if you have any questions or anything for Anthony or myself in relation to this topic, come over to the blog at and post them, come and join us and have a bit of fun over there. Thank you very, very much, Anthony, for being on the show.

Anthony: Thank you, Cindy, I appreciate you having me. Thank you for watching me, I appreciate your time.

Cindy: All right, take care.

Cindy: Randy, it is so cool to have you here on the show. For people who actually haven’t heard of you before, why don’t you just tell us briefly how you go into this line of work? Who are you and what is your thing?

Randy: Cindy, thank you so much for having me on your show. I really appreciate it. I’ve known you for a few years anyway, and I’ve been following you around, so I’m really interested in what you’re doing.

Cindy: Thank you.

Randy: Quick history, though, who am I and why should you care. I built one of the first ISPs when the internet first became commercially available in ’94, so I’ve been around for a few years in the whole marketing game. I’ve built a few multimillion dollar businesses with partners and by myself, and I tell you, it’s way easier with partners. What I’ve been doing for probably the last fifteen years is using those same strategies and typically only working with local business owners on how to grow their businesses. But a lot of those strategies convert right over to online. I have a number of clients who are strictly online, and it’s making a huge impact on their business, some of these ideas that I’ll share today.

Cindy: Yeah, well, it’s a bit exciting having you here because a lot of the other people that I’ve had on the show for this month’s theme have been talking pretty much exclusively about web traffic, which is fantastic, but you are going to be able to show us a way to implement, you know, using web traffic for offline and local businesses, which I’m excited about learning a little bit about. You were talking about, when we were, just before we started this interview, talking a little bit about reputation management and so where do you think is a good place here to start? What shall we share with these people?

Randy: Great place to start. We all started our businesses and our blogs and online, everything, the same place, is on our reputation. Word of mouth, referrals, they got bigger and bigger. The game has changed dramatically in the last twelve to eighteen months where we have to go back to our reputation, because everything is so much more transparent. That’s really, if you go back to the basics, that is the place to start, because 97 percent of the people go back to word of mouth or referral, or they hear about you online or SEO, they go, “Oh, who is this Cindy person?” They’re going to want to find out what other people are talking about you first before they’re going to listen to you.

Cindy: Exactly.

Randy: It’s called social proof. The more you can gather that up, the more trustworthy you are, the more people want to do business with you.

Cindy: Social proof is huge, especially for local businesses, because before people are going to go and spend, especially if it’s like, you know, you need to get your house painted and it cost you something like four, five thousand dollars. Before you go and throw money at someone, you’re going to ask friends who have dealt with someone, or you’re going to go on the internet and just do a quick search and see what people are really saying about these guys.

Randy: Exactly. Do you know who Nielsen is?

Cindy: Yeah, yeah.

Randy: It’s a big survey company. They did a study where they asked people, how much do they trust different forms of advertising. Ninety percent of people trust word of mouth and recommendations. The second one, 72 percent, online reviews.

Cindy: Right.

Randy: The next closest one was 58 percent at a branded website, TV advertising was like 20 percent, and e-mails was at 40 percent if they’re not done the right way. I only ask my clients one question after they know that. Where should you spend your marketing dollar?

Cindy: It makes sense, actually, put it into something that’s going to bring actual cash into your company.

Randy: Exactly.

Cindy: Yeah, so where does someone start? When you’re talking about reviews and word of mouth and all of that, if you haven’t done anything of that actually, like practically, where does someone begin?

Randy: Are you talking about someone who is just starting out in business, or someone who’s been in business for a while, either online or offline, but they haven’t really focused on that area?

Cindy: Well, for most of our people, it’s probably, I’m not sure that they have their, I mean, they might have their own local business, maybe some people, but for the majority, people who are listening in probably are helping clients to build their, find clients to build their online reputation. How do we actually help, how do we help these guys to start… I can see your face, you’re going, “What? Where’s she going with this?” How do you actually, our listeners, how do they first of all, find clients, and then how do they provide a great service for these guys, for their clients?

Randy: All right. I’ll attack that two different ways. One, let’s say you have no clients and you’re starting up. What I always recommend is, have something that, to build up value or trust, so it’s huge value, not a lot of cost to you, and give it away, or for a very low amount of money, in exchange for feedback and referrals. Once you get the feedback, now you’re starting to build up your wealth of reviews, but they’ve also given you referrals of like-minded business owners, so now you can go talk to them. Do the same thing over and over again, until you have, and the magic number is ten, you want ten reviews to be seen as trusted online.

Once you have those ten, now you don’t have to focus so much on getting the referrals, but I do that anyway, because it’s a really easy way to be introduced to other smart business owners.

Cindy: Okay.

Randy: That kind of takes care of someone who is new. Let’s say you already have a business, and you do have some sort of a client base. Well, let’s take the last three months of your clients, and let’s e-mail them. What we want to do is we want to do an e-mail saying, “Hi, I really appreciated you working with me, this is awesome. Would you mind leaving me some feedback? Here’s our mission. Thanks once again.” You want them to go to a Capture page, where if they leave a positive review, then you e-mail those people back, say, “Hey, thanks so much for leaving it. Would you mind leaving that in other places?” If it’s a negative review, you don’t want to send them an e-mail saying, “Leave that negative review in other places.”

Cindy: Right, no.

Randy: It would be dumb. Gives you a chance to e-mail or call them and say, “Hey, I’m really sorry for what happened, how can I make this better?” Over 70 percent of the time, approaching it that way, you can turn a bad review into a five-star [gold 07:24] review. It’s amazing.

Cindy: Right, because it’s often, people, if they have complaints, they just really want someone to talk to and help them to fix it. It’s not that they’re always going to be angry with you, it’s that they want someone to help find a solution and fix it.

Randy: Well, we did a survey on that as well. As you can tell, I love surveys. Metrics tell you everything. Over 68 percent of the people will not leave a negative review, even if they’ve had a bad experience with your company.

Cindy: Yep, okay.

Randy: Give them the opportunity just to say, “Hey, you pissed me off.” You go, “Hey, I totally get it. How could we fix it?” You’d be amazed at how all of a sudden, they become a raving fan.

Cindy: Yep. I think people want the chance to be happy, it’s not like everyone, I mean, there’s a few people that are just always angry and always going to be just complaining, it’s going to happen. But for the most part, I think people want to find a good service. When you send people to a … So you reply back to them, and you say, “Hey, would you mind sharing that here and there?” Do you have a list of places where you suggest that they go and share their good news?

Randy: Well, for local businesses, bricks and mortar, like chiropractors or auto mechanics or panel beaters, as you call them down in Australia, they’re autobody shops here, the number one place that people look for a local business online is Google and the group of three. The number two place is Facebook, and then start looking at Yelp and Insider Pages. There’s probably for any business, there’s between ten and twenty local directories that you should be seen on. What you want to do is focus on one to get, what was the magic number that you needed?

Cindy: Ten.

Randy: Yes, excellent.

Cindy: Ten is the magic number, yes.

Randy: Ten is the magic number, ten on Google, ten on Facebook, ten on Yelp, go back to Google, and always try to be five to ten more than your nearest competitor. For the online people, you don’t have to worry so much about Google, but you should also try to build that up if you can because Google, one of Google’s algorithms is, if you don’t have a good reputation, your SEO efforts suffer. Facebook, Foursquare and Instagram check-ins are also important, acting like social triggers.

Cindy: Okay.

Randy: They should really focus on doing that, but more so now on Facebook, because there’s more of a social triggers type thing, to be seen on Foursquare and Instagram. You can put all those reviews in those areas. It works out really well.

Cindy: Yeah, okay. You talk a bit about surveying, and surveying is huge, because once you know your people, then you can actually give them what they want. If you don’t know what they want to buy, it’s the easiest way to find out what to sell them. Do you have any kind of formula for actually surveying? When you’re surveying people, do you have anything that you definitely ask them, stuff that you definitely don’t ask them?

Randy: Boy, that’s a can of worms right there. We do ask campaigns, and there’s just courses out there that can teach you all about it, but essentially is the first question that goes out there is, “This is what you bought. What did you like and not like about it? What could be done differently?” The next question might be, “You answered these type of questions, here’s some more options of what we’re thinking about going in the future.” They’re going to come back, and you’re going to find that it’s really going to skew into people really pushing into this area, and they didn’t want that area at all. There’s no bad thing to ask.

Cindy: Yeah, okay, well, that’s cool. Have you got any other advice that you can share when it comes to helping people to get a better online presence, and really making the most of the word-of-mouth benefits?

Randy: Well, there’s something out there called the ten-by-ten formula.

Cindy: Ten is one of your favorite numbers, I’m catching a bit of that.

Randy: Well, my favorite number is three, but on the internet it’s ten. I don’t know what’s going on there. This is what I always suggest to my business clients, that when they’ve got a handle on their reputation and their referrals are coming in and they have referral systems in place. Then they create a ten-by-ten formula, where they do ten frequently asked questions and ten should-ask questions. What happens is, you keep them under 90 seconds, so now you’ve got, oh, my god, twenty weeks of content to come out on your blog, and it goes to YouTube and DailyMotion and any of the video places.

Now you’re flooding the internet and the real leverage trick here is you take those videos and you transcribe them. Now you’ve got twenty articles. You take these twenty articles and you post them up there in the world as well. You also take these twenty articles, make it into an e-book, and if you are so disposed to, a real hands- on book. Now you’ve leveraged one thing multiple times, flooding the internet, you’ll be seen as the expert in your area, and it’s just an amazing thing that probably only 2 percent of the population does.

Cindy: I was speaking, I can’t remember who it was the other day, but they were talking about exactly a similar thing, where you take, he was talking about Disney, and how when you go into Disneyland and they say, [who knows 13:03] where is the castle? Everyone comes and asks that question. He was saying, if you can just find out these frequently asked questions, put them down, everyone is going to come and they’re going to want that information anyway, so you might as well give it to them, right?

Randy: Well, exactly. They’re going to ask the question anyway, so why not be out there on a video telling people, hey, if you really want to get traction in your business, the one thing I do is I talk to movers and shakers like Cindy and on her podcast and share the wealth, share the word out there. All of a sudden, someone will see that, they’ll go, “Oh, who’s this Cindy person?” And off it goes.

Cindy: Right, well, thank you. Yeah, getting as much stuff out there as you can. Also, because I’ve done a lot of product sales and you know, product creations and that kind of thing. Now probably the last twelve months or so, it’s been a really big thing at the bottom of digital products, to have a frequently asked questions section. Because it allows you to basically not just get more content up there and just hear yourself talk, but to actually address any of these things that are going, like ideas that might stop someone from buying.

Anything that’s actually going to stop someone from making that “yes” decision, you want to try and answer that question, even if they, they might not actually know to verbalize that question. But once you’ve said it, and you address it, it just brings closure to that, and then it helps them move towards the sale a little bit better.

Randy: You’re removing all the barriers for them to purchase.

Cindy: Yeah, exactly.

Randy: The question there, they may not even have thought about, they go, “Wow, thank you so much from bringing that up to me.” Also,

[inaudible 14:52] your product, for any of your e-mails that you’re sending out, you put testimonials.

Cindy: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Randy: Because now instead of you saying, “Hey, look how great I am. Don’t listen to me, Cindy said this great stuff about me.” Even if you pay someone to say it, they’re still more believable than you saying it about yourself.

Cindy: Yeah, exactly. You can do this for local business as well, can’t you, and get … Do you, have you had much experience with actually getting a lot of testimonials from clients? Because you were mentioning reviews as very, very powerful, I mean, reviews linked into testimonials very tightly, I guess.

Randy: They’re, I use them interchangeably. My latest chiropractor client, we went from zero to sixty-two reviews on Google in eight months, and his business is booming. He’s passed over the half million dollar mark.

Cindy: Okay, is there, I mean, besides sending out a survey or just a question, are there any, because you want, a lot of people aren’t going to just give you a testimonial. You have to give some sort of incentive or some sort of reason for them to take their time and give you a review or a feedback or something like that. Have you got anything to nudge them towards actually giving you that?

Randy: I love this question, absolutely love it. Both Yelp and Google state that you’re not supposed to ask anyone for reviews, but Google runs a contest saying, if you leave reviews, you’ll be entered into a contest. This is what I tell people to do, is you incentivize people to leave a review, good or bad, and you say, in this month, all the latest reviews, you’re going to be entered into a contest for a iPad or for whatever it happens to be. For a chiropractor it was great, because one patient is worth so much money for them. They can offer something quite valuable to it.

That is the the best way, contest, we’re only going to be looking at this month, we’re going to randomly draw, that person will get it. The real trick there is, you get everybody something anyway. Something small, everyone is a winner.

Cindy: Yep. Okay. That is fantastic. All right, we’re probably going to wrap it up pretty soon. Do you have any last-minute advice or tips that you’d like to share with our listeners?

Randy: Not a lot. I think we covered a whole lot of ground here. There’s a lot of information there for people to absorb, and me to throw more stuff out there, it’s just going to be like getting punched in the face. [crosstalk 17:28]

Cindy: We’re not about punching people in the faces.

Randy: Listen to this a few times, if you have any questions, don’t hesitate to contact me, and I know Cindy is going to give you my contact information. Cindy: Sure.

Randy: I’d be more than happy to either e-mail with you or we can do a Skype conversation. Because your choice is always one of three things. One, do nothing, which is dumb. Two, do it yourself, which if you have no money, then that’s what you should do. Or three, hire people who know what they’re doing in that specific expertise, and you’ll get much further add. That’s where I can help you.

Cindy: Absolutely. If you are listening, if you’re a 7 Figure Furnace listener from your phone or any other way via the podcast and you haven’t actually shown up on the blog, come on over, find Randy’s discussion here, and look below the podcast and you’ll see a whole bunch of links, and basically me being silly, as usual [inaudible 18:30]. Yeah, grab some links, some details. It’s been fantastic having you here on the show, Randy. Let’s hope you get …

Randy: Thanks for having me, Cindy, I appreciate it. You’re amazing, what can I say?

Cindy: Thanks so much. Talk to you soon, then. Bye-bye.

Randy: You betcha.

Cindy: Stephen, it’s so great to have you here on the show. Thank you for being here.

Stephen: Hey, thanks for having me. I appreciate it.

Cindy: For the people who are listening here today who haven’t heard about Stephen, why don’t you tell us just a little bit about how you got started in internet marketing, and why you’re really, really excited about email marketing?

Stephen: Sure. Probably back in 2008ish, I graduated high school and was starting college, and I was working this job and I was going to school full time, and then working full time, and I was fortunate enough to have a boss that understood that and valued education, so he would let me take off for a 2 hour lunch break to go to class, and then come right back. It was great. I did that for the whole first semester, moved out, moved into an apartment with roommates, and the company was doing so well, they sold it for a bunch of money. When they sold it, a new CEO came in, and I knew at the time that when companies get sold, they do some downsizing, and I was at the bottom of the totem pole. All I did was maintenance and answer phones, because it was a small company.

I remember, I sat down with my new boss one day and I said, “Hey, I know that when CEO’s, or when companies get purchased, they shred off the fat or whatever. Do I need to look for a new job because I would like to be prepared?” He was like, “No, no, no. We’re not going to be doing any of that. Everything’s fine.” 2 weeks later, no. They laid me off on the spot.

Cindy: Wow, what a bastard.

Stephen: Yeah, on the spot. By this point, I’m freaking out, because I was making enough to live in my apartment, and pay for gas and all my

bills while going to school, and I was like, “I need a way to make money.” They put me on unemployment which was nowhere near enough and I was like, “I’ve always been good with computers since I was 10,” so I was like, “Well, maybe I can find a way to make a little bit of money online, probably not get rich, just make a little bit of money,” and I did some searching and I ended up finding transcription which is where people pay you to type interviews or magazines, whatever. I started off doing that and it was great, and I was making a lot of money doing it, create a little business out of it, and I remember the Warrior Forum that people buy training there and so I was like, “Well, maybe I can teach people about creating this little business.”

That’s what I did. Fast forward 6 years, which is where we are now, and that blew up way bigger than I thought it would. Now, I’m a blogger, I have product creation stuff that I do, I do consulting, I do coaching, and I just do so much stuff. This whole time, the core of everything that I’ve done has been email marketing. In particular, I’m an email marketing consultant because there’s a lot of people who don’t know it works, or know how to maybe use it to the best of their advantage, and for me, especially these days with your mobile phone, it’s just a way into your customers psyche, right?

Because it’s a very intimate thing to show up on someone’s phone. It’s a crazy, cool form of relationship building and advertising, and I’ve made decent amounts of money from a lot of things that I’ve done, but email marketing has been just the most consistent and that’s exactly because it’s so intimate, because if you treat your customers right and you treat your readers right, it pays dividends. I teach other people how to do that now. That’s what I consider myself as, is like an email marketing expert, so that’s what I do.

Cindy: Excellent. We all hear “The money is in the list. You need to be building your list,” whatever it is that you’re doing. For people that are listening in, these guys might be already building their list, or they might not even be started. What if we just start right from the very beginning. If someone needs to get started building a list, what is the best way? We’ll keep this quick, because I guess some people have already started, but what if we do this quick overview, and then we can get really into the guts of it. Good strategies.

Stephen: There are 3 ways. If you already own a business of some sort, maybe it’s an offline business, you’re going to capture leads that

way, whether it’s like with a little QR code that you put next to your cash register, or an opt in form on your website. Find a way to capture those leads. If you’re not running a business, and you just want to build a list, and that leaves you with 2 options. Well, there’s a bunch of options, but the 2 options that I think are the best place to start. The first one is going to be paid traffic. A lot of people don’t like to talk about paid traffic because it’s complicated and takes quite a bit of effort, but the thing is, Facebook traffic …

Cindy: [crosstalk 00:05:22].

Stephen: Facebook traffic right now is huge. You can take Facebook traffic from any niche and build a free report or offer some sort of thing and get them onto your list, and then focus on relationship building and building an audience out of that. That’s probably, even though it seems harder, that’s probably a lot easier than the third way that I would recommend, which obviously is if you have something valuable to present to people, product launching. My list, as it is right now, is 80% product launching, 20% blog. Working on moving away from product launching, but the very first list that I built was from paid traffic. I was running a list, trying to get transcription clients, and pretty early on, what I realized was that I could say, “Hey, I’m running a deal,” because the way transcription works is it’s like $60 an hour when you’re good, sometimes a lot more.

I was like, “Hey, I’m running a deal. I’ll do an hour for $45.” Then, people were like, “Oh, I need this done. I need that done,” so it was really cool. Then, once I got into the product launch space, I realized there was this whole other area of it where you could actually try to sell other people’s stuff, so it’s been interesting.

Cindy: That’s fantastic. I was interviewing someone the other day. We were discussing Facebook and media buys and stuff like this.

Something that they said, since you brought up buying Facebook traffic, something they said is that you don’t have to go, when you’re buying clicks, and I just thought I’d throw this in, is that you don’t have to go by what Facebook actually tells you to, and you can go to their absolute minimum and you can still get clicks. I thought I’d try it out, because just thought I’d try list building, sending them to a lead generation page, just giving away something, and there’s tonnes of stuff out there that you can just grab and put your name on it and start sending traffic to, and I’m getting clicks here, I just logged in to check, for 3 cents, so these are actual clicks to my thing and I’m getting signups and stuff. It’s cost me so far $8.24, and I have 311 clicks and 52 signups.

Stephen: That’s really good.

Cindy: Yeah, I know. I’m really pumped. It does take a little bit of work, but golly. This is really good.

Stephen: Yep. I know a few people right now that are using Facebook. I’m not one of them, because I have a new kid, so I’ve been trying to get into a routine, but I know people right now that are taking people from Facebook, getting them into their funnel, and then doing a few things, relationship building, and then teaching them with auto webinars, so they end up making like 4.99, 9.99 sales. It’s really interesting. I want to pursue that soon, but I’ve got to find the time.

Cindy: Yep. Once you get people onto a list, have you got some tips that you can share about …

Stephen: Absolutely.

Cindy: … Connecting with them, perhaps?

Stephen: Yeah. The thing about email marketing now is a majority of the people who are going to be on your list, they’re going to get your email to their phone most of the time. The thing about a phone is it’s very, like I already mentioned, it’s very personal and intimate, and so when people get onto my list and into my funnel, my first 5 emails are relationship building emails, and I take it up a notch. Some people just give away free PDFs, or membership sites, whatever. I purposely create videos, like just 1 video per email, where it’s me trying to not only get them comfortable with me, but also build a relationship and let them know what I’m all about. They get my first email when they get on my list, I introduce myself, and then I give them some free training.

The reason I’m giving free training, is because some people say it’s for reciprocity, which I guess sometimes it does work, but that’s not why I do it. I do it because I want them to hear my voice and see me on camera, see what I’m about, because it’s a lot easier for people to trust you and judge you if they can see your mannerisms and hear you talk. My first email goes out, talk about myself, give them training with me on camera. It’s a very one on one experience, and then I have another email that goes out. The first email, it’s strictly training. The second email is training and a little bit of preaching, where I give them training, and then I’m talking about how I feel about certain things in internet marketing and how it’s not right and how it’s not cool, and then I tell them to look out for my next email in which I start to preach a little bit more. Eventually, you get to the final email and it’s me just basically talking about …

It’s preaching. It’s essentially preaching, where I talk about how it’s wrong to … The way a lot of things in internet marketing are pretty immoral, and not all of them, but you know, there’s a good bit of it, and so I talk about there’s people who will take your email and put you on their list and then send you emails that are designed to make you want something and then you go to a sales page which is designed to make you buy, and so the reason I have it all setup like this is because I want them to feel like I’m on their side, and I am, but this is for me, the way I have it setup is I have it setup so that I get fans, people that want to follow me for years and want to see what I’m up to, and want to know that I took my daughter to the park today. If you have a list, the very best thing you can do is start with relationship building and come up with an image of who you are.

For me, I try to just be myself and everyone on my list knows I’m a recovering drug addict because I didn’t want to hide that, and I wanted them to know, and everyone knows that I have 3 dogs, 2 cats, and a bird. The very best thing you can do when you first get a list is build a relationship with them. Put out content, 1 video per email, do 3 to 4 emails, and then after you have that relationship built, what I’ve found the best way to keep them engaged is to always be available, so this whole time, during the emails, I’m like, “Reply back, and I’ll message you back.” I’ve made a couple friends, not any that I’ve met in real life, but one of them, we actually play video games together …

Cindy: That’s awesome.

Stephen: … Which is interesting, yeah.

Cindy: Yeah. I think what some people, especially in the internet marketing space, what some people forget is that when people get on an

internet marketing email list, they’re basically on 20, 30, 50 other peoples list, as well, so what you’re saying is really important. You need to be able to let them connect with you. If you’re just sending out email swipes that are from the latest launch, there’s actually no personality in there, and there’s nothing separating you from the other 50. The thing is, you’re very open and you share everything, and some people might be shy about that. The thing is, your story and your personality isn’t going to actually connect with absolutely everyone. Some people are going to go, “Yeah, nah. I’m not interested in that. I don’t care that he has a kid.”

I mean, that’s kind of harsh, but some people don’t want to hear about that sort of stuff, but the people that do, those are the one that you want on your list, and there’s going to be enough of those people to identify with you and really connect with you. That’s what I’m trying to do right now. It’s a really fun phase, because once you start expressing yourself and who you are, you do see a little bit of a drop away, but the people that are listening and actually opening your emails, they’re the people that you want to connect with anyway, because they really care about you. I think it’s great, and you get to be yourself.

Stephen: Exactly. The logic for me behind it is right now, the space, especially the internet marketing space, it’s really crowded with vendors, probably more crowded than it’s been in the last 2 to 3 years.

Cindy: More than ever that I remember, and I’ve been doing this for over 10 years.

Stephen: I’ve definitely noticed that it’s been packed, just crazy. When you get to, in any market, not even just internet marketing, with any market, when there’s a flood of vendors and not enough customers, the ones that stand out are the ones that focus on quality and engagement and customer service. Me introducing myself to them and building that relationship is essentially customer service because they’re like, “Well, hey, I know Steve. He’s got 3 kids, or 1 kid, 3 dogs, 2 cats, and a bird, and he’s never screwed me over and he’s nice.” What I’ve actually found is by doing this, a lot of people will buy from you just because they like you and because they trust you, and so all the time, I get emails from people, like even on a product I didn’t recommend, they’re like, “What do you think about this?,” or, “What do you think about that?” I’m like, “Well, I don’t know,” or, “It’s not worth it,” you know? I’ve ended up in a spot where people just ask me, they want to know what I think about stuff and I think that’s because I’ve been so open and straightforward with them.

Cindy: Right, and we’re in a good position here where we actually get to spend our days looking at products and using things and stuff. A lot

of the time, people don’t have all that time. I mean, we’re busy still, but we actually get to go and it’s our job, I guess. We don’t have to go to a day job, as well. We’re a bit lucky. When you send out your emails, can we talk about sequencing?

Stephen: Yeah. Especially right now, with so many vendors, and you kind of hit on it that there’s just so many people right now in the space to get on so many different lists. What I teach my students is, I teach them to focus on time zones, and then always being the last one to mail. It used to be, you’d want to be the first because then you’re going to get a flood of sales. I’m not like that because I realized that not everyone is sitting there at 9am ready to buy something. I always want to be the last. I’ll give you 2 examples. On a launch, if I’m promoting a launch, I mail 10 to 15 minutes after everyone else does, and the reason for that is because on these little iPhone’s and droid phones, the most recent email sits at the top. It’s at the top, so if you’re the last one to mail, you’re not going to get lost.

You’re going to be the first one they say when they open up the mail app. On launches, I mail last. Now, if I’m just doing relationship building or anything else, I mail when no one else is mailing. I’ll try to avoid the 11am rush, because obviously I want people to see it, so I’ll either mail at 6 or 7am Eastern, or I’ll wait until after and mail at 1 or 2. Now, what I actually do is I use Google Analytics on my site, so I’m able to see where most of my readers are, and I’ll mail with time zones. I’ll avoid the rush and I’ll mail for the American’s, but then I’ve also got a lot of customers in the UK and a lot of customers in Australia, so I’ll mail later, like perhaps to unopens, if you will, people if you haven’t opened it, I’ll mail later when it’s morning time there for them. When it’s 6am in Australia, 8am in London, I’ll do that.

That way, as they’re getting up, maybe reading their emails over coffee or something, they see mine and it’s not buried by 1000 other people. Now, as a general rule of thumb, times that I’ve found for me, that are best to mail, 1am Eastern has always been really good for me, and some time around 8:30am Eastern. I think part of that is because a lot of people don’t mail at that time and so you’re in front of more eyeballs for longer, and I think the other reason is just where my customers are spread out. When I mail at 1 Eastern, it’s 6 or 7 in London. I get a lot of …

Cindy: Okay. I know that a couple of the autoresponder platforms now, they’re starting to let you do it based on the time zone, and also, based on frequency of when the person actually opens the emails which is great. I mean, if you’re mailing for a launch it’s a little bit

Stephen: Cindy: Stephen: tricky because you just want to get it to them. Like, when it goes live, you want to be able to get that product, that email out to them. Sometimes, it takes a little while to drip all of those emails out. What have you found there? I find …

I will say …
I try and use that, but …

I haven’t tested it. Some people have, and they’ve had mixed results. My issue is I know for a fact that I use AWeber, which I honestly need to switch because they’re all right, but they’re not as good as they used to be. I’ve found that their cookie doesn’t always fire, so the tracking cookie, so even though I’m hitting, sometimes I’ll mail unopens, some of those people have already seen it, it’s just the cookie, whatever platform they’re using to read the email doesn’t load the cookie so you don’t track. I’m always worried that if I use that, how do they send to people who they don’t know how they check, you know? I haven’t tested it yet, but I think it has promise, because if you can mail at the exact right moment that most people always check their email, that’s going to be pretty powerful. I just don’t have enough data yet to give you a clear answer.

Yep. All right. What other advice have you got related to email marketing?

Okay, sure. My students, I always get a few comment questions and one is, “What’s the best way to promote a product and review it and recommend it? What’s the best email structure?” Then, I always say, the way I look at email marketing is I like at it from risk aversion, because we work for ourselves, and if we don’t do well, we don’t get paid. If you put together a whole page and all this stuff and spend all this time on something, and only convert at 2%, you’re going to be pretty ticked off, and so I reframe the whole way I look at email marketing. I look at is as risk aversion, because I want to know that the time I’m spending on something is going to be at least somewhat consistent and trackable, and so the way I’ve managed to do this is I came up with a formula that usually always makes sure I’m converting at 20-30%. It has some downsides, but I’ll get to those in a second. What I’ve found is, if you were to just right now, send out an email with an affiliate link, just on any old product or whatever, you’re going to be seeing anywhere from 5 to 25% conversions.

Stephen: More likely, way closer to 5. If you were to just create a video and send an email out, no pre-promotion, no anything, that number that’s close to 5 is going to go up a few points, percentage points, conversion wise. If you were to create a video and add a bonus, it’s going to go up. If you were to create a review page, add a bonus, and pre-promote, you’re going to be even higher, if you were to pre- promote longer. Basically, what I’ve come up with is a strategy that makes sure that it hits on all the things that are proven to have increased conversions. What I’ll do on a promotion I really want to get the word out about, I’ll mail 2 days before the product goes live to a review video page which is on my blog. On that page, I have my review video and a whole bunch of information about the product, more information about the one time offers, and then just my opinion about all of it, whether I think it’s worth their time, and then I give it a score.

I’ll mail that out 2 days before with 1 angle. Pick any angle. Then, the next day, this is now 1 day before, I’ll mail out a different angle of a different email to the same page. The goal is to get them to the page and to watch the video. Then, when the product goes live, I’ll mail. Depending on how much traction this offer is getting and how many affiliates are promoting it, sometimes, like, if more affiliates are promoting it, I’ll mail 2 hours before it goes live, just to remind them, and if not, then I won’t, but either way, I’ll mail 2 hours before if it’s packed, and if it’s not packed, I’ll just mail 15 minutes after it goes live, 10 to 15, because again, I want to be the last person they see and then …

Cindy: [inaudible 00:23:07] works, yep.

Stephen: Exactly, and then depending on how it’s performing and how the conversions are, that’ll determine whether I move forward with a closing campaign, because I’m sure you know, you can make a lot of money when a product goes live, but if you promote it for 5 days, you can sometimes just double the amount, triple the amount you made on day 1. 2 days before, 1 angle. 1 day before, another angle. 2 hours before, if it’s busy, and then when it goes live, about 10-15 minutes after. For me, that’s the strategy I’ve found that guarantees that I’m not wasting my time, maximizes conversion, maximizes effort. I just used that exact campaign on a product that didn’t have any traction and made 450 sales from 1200 clicks.

Cindy: That works then.

Stephen: I’ve been using it now for 5 years. People ask, “How have you been able to do this? Stay in this particular niche so long?” It’s because I have a system. My video is systemized to answer frequently asked questions, and encourage them to check it out. My page is optimized. It’s all set up so that when I make a campaign, I didn’t just waste 12 hours going through a product and making the video and making a page. That’s how I look at it.

Cindy: Yep. That totally makes sense, and then you can actually put in the effort to do a really good job of it, instead of jumping from thing to thing. Yeah, makes it a lot better. It’s a better experience for everyone else who’s on your list, but it’s also a bit more rewarding for yourself, too, because it’s hard to put all this work in and then not have a lot of anything back from it. I mean, whether it’s money or appreciation from people that need that information.

Stephen: Exactly, and the way I make my videos, I structure my personality and relationship is that I’m always not pressuring them. I’m like,

“Look, I’m not pressuring you. Other people are going to, but here’s the information you need to make a decision for yourself. I don’t want you to feel like I’m making it for you.” The reason I do like that is because, again, I see my readers and my customers are people. If you screw them over, they’re going to remember, which is why some people are having to constantly put out a product every 2 weeks because they can’t keep anyone happy, to like them. If you’re thinking about doing an email marketing campaign, the 3 things you can do to make sure that conversions are high are pre-promote it, do some sort of review video where you actually have gone through the product and talk about what you think, and add a bonus.

If you do even just 1 of those things, your conversions will be higher than as if you were to do just send it out, but it has a synergistic effect, so if you do all 3, you get a lot more conversions. You see a lot of people do 1 or the other. Sometimes they’ll do all 3, but for me, all 3 is just always done so well. It’s crazy. I can promote 3 or 4 things a month, and be way ahead of a lot of people.

Cindy: Right, okay. We’re probably going to wrap it up soon. Do you have any last words of advice for people that are wanting to really smash it with email marketing?

Stephen: Yeah. Just remember that sometimes it’s hard to picture that these people that you’re emailing are actually people because you don’t know them, you don’t know what they look, you don’t know how they maybe even smell or anything. It’s hard to imagine them as people, rather than just an ATM machine, but if you treat them right, treat them with respect, then they’ll treat you with respect in return, and you’ll not only get more engagement and more fans, but you’ll end up ultimately make a lot more commissions and money. Treat people right and just put a little bit more effort in than everyone else, and you’ll be surprised at how far it can take you.

Cindy: That’s funny that you mentioned that. It actually just triggered a memory. I created, it’s a workbook, I guess, a worksheet, to be able to create an avatar, so you can create your own personal avatar of who is your email list, and I’ve found that as soon as I started creating an avatar for whoever it is, either a product, or an email list, or whatever, it really helps you identify who it is that you’re talking to, and turns them into a person, instead of just some random wallet, because that’s not what they are. They’re actually real people. For you guys that are listening, what I could do is include this for free, and I’ll throw it on the blog, so if you came via this recording, via iTunes, or via the Android Store, or whatever, go over to and look up “Stephen’s Podcast,” and underneath, I’ll make sure that I can throw that in there, and help you just really connect and identify who it is that your people are, so that you can just turn them into people because that’s who we all are, right?

Stephen: Right.

Cindy: Cool. Thank you so much, Stephen, for being here on the show. I appreciate your time

Cindy: Oh my gosh Harris. It is fantastic to have you here. As always I love catching up with you and I’m really excited about what you’re going to be sharing with these guys today, because you really know your stuff when it comes to email traffic. For people that don’t know about you, why don’t you give us a brief description about how you got into email traffic?

Harris: Oh, okay. Actually it’s probably been, oh, 17 years or so. What year is it? Back in 1998 or 1999, something like that, I had … 1999 we started a company that did email. Email deployment we called it, but basically that just meant that we sent a bunch of emails. We got to a point where we were mailing probably, I don’t know, seven, eight million emails a day. Some people might call that spam, which many people mailed me back and did tell me that. That’s where I got my start in email, 17, 18 years ago. We had permission to mail people and stuff like that.

Then somewhere around 2004, I think it was, that the laws changed a little bit in regards to email. We were around for that as well, but then I really, I shifted away from that company and got in 2005, went into a company that … Not really a company. I just got into the internet marketing space, which is where I really, where you and I met. I started building lists that were very relationship driven, meaning people knew who I was. They like my personality. They could pick up my personality. I would do interviews like we’re doing now, teleseminars, live interviews, and what I found was that literally, I don’t think that list ever got to be more than 80,000 people, but I probably made as much money with those 80,000 people that I had “relationship with” than I did mailing to the six or seven million people a day, which was really interesting.

I’ve got chops on all sides of it. I was in the [inaudible 00:02:36] space doing my own launches for a while, and then eventually settled into … First I helped some, I did JB brokering. People are probably familiar with that where you get affiliates to mail for you, but you’ll mail back for them. I was setting that up for people, and then eventually fell into more the solo ad space.

One of the clients that I had that was doing, that we were doing swaps with said, “Hey, I don’t want to do swaps anymore. Do you have anybody that I could just pay to do a mailing with?” I talked to people on the other side of the fence and somebody said, “Yeah.” We paid them upfront for the mailing. We guaranteed them some sort of performance. It went well, and the guy said, “Let’s do that again with somebody else.” I started building my book of list owners that were willing to, instead of doing a swap or do things on an affiliate basis, they were willing to be paid on a per click basis. That was in 2012.

Cindy: Basically that’s what solo email marketing is, isn’t it? You pay someone and then they send out an email to their list about your products for you.

Harris: Yeah. I try to stay away from the word solo ads in my company now, because there’s a whole bunch of people that are abusing what it is as well. There’s another side of the industry that calls it a dedicated email broadcast. Another side of the industry calls it just an email newsletter. Ultimately we’re used to hearing it called solo ad. What that means is you’re sending a solo, one, advertisement to somebody’s email newsletter to all of their subscribers. Alternatively, you could pay to have a little tiny advertisement on the top of it. That’s not what a solo ad is and it’s not nearly as effective as the entire message being about what it is that you’re wanting to sell.

Cindy: Okay, so today I want to talk a little bit about email traffic and about if you’re buying, if you’re actually paying out money for someone to do it, how do you avoid losing your money? How to make sure that you really benefit from that? If you’re putting money in, you want to pay for those clicks and you want them to make you money. How do you do that?

Harris: Yeah, first of all I guess it’s important and fair … I don’t know what level of experience your audience is, but one of the things before I

say that is there’s nothing you can do to make sure that you don’t “lose money” unless you have the attitude of I’m testing to make sure to see if this list is a good match for my offer. Now, if you’ve got let’s say a health offer that’s going to help somebody lose weight, you’re probably wasting your money to go to somebody that has a list of people that are interested in search engine optimization or something that has nothing to do with it.

That would be step one, but firstly just you want to say, have the attitude of testing but then there’s a bunch of things that you can do to protect yourself and the truth of the matter is is that this industry’s grown up really fast and I say that there’s a lot of new people that hear about solos and they just throw their money around. There’s a lot of experienced, or even inexperienced people that will take advantage of people. I always say it’s, often what I observe, it’s where the uneducated meets the unethical. You have to be really careful if you’re the uneducated. The unethical are going to take advantage of you.

Yeah, there’s a number of things to look for and to make sure that, just have a … I don’t know. Just be smart about it. If you find somebody. If you go out on Facebook group and you find somebody that you like, look through the group and see if there’s any testimonials on them. Go to Google and Google the person and add the person’s … Like if it was you or me, Harris. Add the word scam after my name and see what you find out. I probably shouldn’t have said that, because maybe there’s something out there. Or Harris review, or the name of the website that you’re buying from, review.

At least get … See what people say. Take it with a grain of salt. There could be somebody that … The more business you do, the more people are going to come up with reasons to complain about you maybe. At least find out what you’re dealing with. Then the other … Yeah, go ahead.

Cindy: Oh no. You carry on. You’ve got some more stuff?

Harris: Oh yeah. I was just going to say the other thing, that’s 101. We have the Googles. You can Google and also check on Facebook. See who

their friends are and see if you happen to recognize anybody usually if you have a biz op offer, a business opportunity offer, chances are you have friends that are in that as well. Then if you go and find a solo ad provider, you can check Facebook and see if he’s friends with anybody. Then you can ask those people if you can find somebody that pretty much vouches for them. Somebody tells you, “Hey, I’ve tried this guy’s traffic, and it did really well,” and it’s somebody you know, that’s a pretty good sign. The most dangerous thing out there that you really have to watch out for and I have a safe traffic checklist that you can give a link out on your blog or whatever and people can go grab that, it’s got 10 things on it, which we’re not going to go through all 10 of those right now.

The biggest thing that you have to realize is people do cheat. If an email is “supposedly sending” you something, it’s being sent via computer while somebody can create a … They’re called bots. They can create a little script that makes it look like somebody’s going to your website and opting in. That’s the biggest thing to watch out for. You want to make sure that you have protection against that with, there’s a number of click tracking companies out there that are really good at it. The best one out there’s probably Click Magic right now. They’re really good at blocking bots and fraud and things like that. I don’t know if you know of any that you like.

Cindy: Yeah, I really actually don’t have much experience. I email my list, but I haven’t done a lot of paid emails. This is really exciting for me to learn about, too.

Harris: That’s the biggest thing that you just want to watch out for. If you’re just smart about it, and a little bit of buyer beware, but the bottom line, if you deal with a reputable company … My company is a broker, or an agency. I think that’s what I actually say on my website. At the end of the day, I’m a list broker. We have 35 or 40 different lists in something like six or seven different niches. We vet all of the publishers that we work with per the safe traffic checklist that I mentioned. Again, we deal with people we know. We deal with people that someone else can vouch for. There’s a lot of great services out there. There’s marketplaces out there like [inaudible 00:10:43] and Clickonomy. They’re trusted, but they’re still people inside of them, because it’s a direct marketplace, with no protection, there’s still people inside of them that are going to try to take advantage of people. They’re going to send them, they’re going to try to trick and try to cheat.

Now, is it 100%? No. In fact these guys are, everybody is getting much better at, and when I say everybody, I mean the companies that a marketplace or a broker agency, is getting much better at keeping the fraud and that away. Because it used to be where people would just turn a, I wouldn’t but, we as an industry would turn a blind eye because we would say, “Hey, I’m paying for clicks and I’m in the middle. I don’t care. The customer thinks he got 1,000 visitors.”

Cindy: I got money and they got money and everyone’s happy, but it’s not beneficial for the person that’s buying the traffic. That’s what it’s all about. It’s making sure that when you buy traffic it’s going to actually do what you want it to do. It’s going to get you real customers, real people that are going to buy stuff.

Harris: Right. By the way that fraud, that click fraud, that’s not just email. That is every single freaking online advertising industry. There’s a bunch of cheaters out there that’ll try to get a little bit of extra money, or a lot of extra money by doing stuff like that. Yeah, let’s talk about the good. The good is, I told you I’ve been in this thing for a really long time. I got away from it in 2004. I literally as I … That’s what? That’s 12 years ago. I said, “Okay, I can see the writing on the wall. This email thing, it’s going to be gone soon. Nobody’s going to be able to do email advertising anymore.” I got out of it. That’s why I went into the internet marketing space and teaching info courses and stuff.

Eight years later, I pop my head back up and say, “Oh my gosh, it’s still the best return on investment if you get good clean traffic. It’s the best return on investment.” I’m talking by leaps and bounds. You can Google best ROI for digital advertising and you’ll find that it’s something like, that one average, it returns something like $40 for ever dollar you spend.

Cindy: That’s crazy. The customer, yeah.

Harris: Do my clients always get that? No, but the smart ones they know that they … The biggest thing for people that are coming from, like you and me, that come from the affiliate mindset, we’re used to, we don’t have to pay anybody for anything unless a sale is made. We only have to pay for half, or whatever. If we have a info product we pay 40, 50%. When somebody, I’m thinking of somebody in particular and I won’t say his name, but this is somebody that’s been in the [inaudible 00:14:00] space for longer than me, and he bought some traffic from us. Some of the lists made money, and some of the lists were a little bit under.

By that, what I mean is say he bought $1,000 worth of traffic from me on list A. It returned him maybe $900 in sales immediately. From his standpoint, that’s a loss. He wanted to make money on that initial mailing, but the truth is he had 45 or however many customers it was, 40 or 50 customers that bought whatever the front end product was, and those people are now in his funnel. Those are buyers that are going to be lifetime customers that are going to buy other things from him.

Cindy: Exactly.

Harris: The large companies that I see that buy a ton of email and other traffic sources, they are willing to lose money. My supplement buyers, somebody reported back to me whatever the loss was, and I said, “What do you need to do? Do you need to break even?” They’re like, “No, no. We’re happy. We’ll keep mailing on that list if we just get half of our money back.” If they spend $1,000 and get $500, they know that people are going to re-bill for two or three months and they’re going to get their money back and then some after that period of time.

Cindy: It’s about knowing the lifetime value of your customer. Once you get a lead, even if you’re sending to an opt in and they buy nothing, they just opt in and then maybe after they opt in you send them to an offer, because you’ll make a little bit of money there. Once you’ve got them on your list, then you can mail them forever and just keep blasting different offers to them, and you’ll definitely get your money back but you’ve got to make sure that you have a funnel that is going to make you back money.

Harris: Right, it’s funny too, whenever we say all of these little industry terms like funnel, if somebody’s brand new they’re like, “What the heck are you talking about?” A funnel is just the idea that somebody, like Cindy said, they opt in to the front page. We call it a squeeze page or a landing page. A lead capture page is probably the easiest way to say it. Then from there maybe it goes to a one time offer page, or a sales page of some sort. Then now they’re in your … Maybe they buy something, and you give them a chance to buy something else. You say, “Hey, you got this product,” whatever. “You got this vitamin supplement. Maybe you want this to go along with it,” or something along those lines.

What I’ve found in really focusing on the differences between a long term successful offer that just I just mail week in and week out, is that they have a backend. Like you said, that they know their lifetime value, but that they have a lifetime value, because if somebody just buys one product and is gone, and you made 10% … Let’s say you bought $1,000 and you made $1,100. That’s great, but imagine if you were able to do the other way where you’re able to lose money because you know you’ve got seven other things and they’re going to buy three of them. It’s going to make you three times the money. That’s the thing. That’s what I really, really honed in on lately. If it’s got the ability to have a lifetime value, then there’s a really good chance that they’ll be able to find, you will be able to find lists out there that are going to match your offer.

Cindy: Exactly. I know that you’ve got places to be. We’ll probably keep this pretty short. Do you have any final words of advice for people looking to get started on traffic? Harris: On email traffic or any traffic?

Cindy: Sorry, email traffic. Let’s just stick with this without opening a whole nother set of cat of bags.

Harris: Yeah, just be smart and be careful.

Cindy: I just said cat of bags. What the hell is a cat of bags?

Harris: I thought because you’re down under, I thought that that’s what you say. I was going with it. Yeah, I guess just what we really started off with. It’s just know for a fact. Google it for yourself that really email traffic is going to return you the best ROI. However, that only applies if you’re buying good, clean traffic. Be smart about it.

Cindy: Right. Excellent. Thank you so much for joining me. Guys, you listeners who are listening in via iTunes, if you came via a podcast somewhere and you haven’t visited the blog, come and visit and find Harris’s presentation. It’ll be up there on the 7 Figure Furnace blog. Underneath it we’ll have a whole bunch of resources. If you want to access his safe traffic checklist …

Harris: Safe traffic.

Cindy: Safe traffic checklist. Come over and grab it and it’ll be there free for you to download. Come and check it out. Thank you so much,

Harris for being on the show today, and thanks for sharing your advice on grabbing some safe traffic and making sure that you avoid all the pitfalls.

Harris: Thanks a lot for having me, Cindy.

Cindy: It’s been awesome catching up with you.

Harris: It’s been great catching up with you, too. Take care.

Cindy: See you then.

Cindy: Jonathan it is fantastic to actually have you here. For the people who are listening in on 7 Figure Furnace show today and haven’t heard about you why don’t you tell us a little bit about yourself? Who is Jonathan van Clute?

Jonathan: Oh, brother, we’re not going to fit this into a half an hour. (Laughter)

Cindy: How did you get started?

Jonathan: I live in Silicon Valley, I’ve lived here my whole life. I’m a born and bred geek through and through. My dad was a programmer in the 60s. It’s as in my blood as you can get. I’ve been a musician all my life, an electronic musician since the 80s. I’ve been online actually since the 80s as well in the old days of the BBSs. I literally had a rotary phone I’d dial the number up, I’d put the thing on the cradle, the whole deal. But I didn’t really see anything as far as money goes form online until eBay came along in like ’95, ’96 something like that. My ex-wife and I started selling, it started with My Little Pony believe it or not. If you remember that.

Cindy: My Little Pony’s big again since the bronies.

Jonathan: Oh yeah. And that was the time frame where it was just about to come back out again.

Cindy: Mm-hmm (affirmative)

Jonathan: And we didn’t know that yet of course, but my wife just like them as a kid and so she saw a few people selling them and thought she could pick up a few. She’d find them at garage sales, then she’d see people selling them for 50 times what she’d just paid at the garage same and went “wait a minute.”

Cindy: There’s some money there.

Jonathan: Oh yeah. We made thousands upon thousands, upon tens of thousands of dollars over the few years time including cleaning out an entire store in Amsterdam that happened to, for some reason, have several hundred units of the original toys still in their packaging, in Dutch packaging.

Cindy: Wow.

Jonathan: We bought every single solitary one of them, came back to the U.S. and made thousands and thousands of dollars off of that batch.

Cindy: That is fantastic. How did you make the transition into internet marketing, how did you get online? And today we’re going to be talking a bit about traffic so why don’t you tell us how you transitioned into that.

Jonathan: It started like a lot of people do or people did rather with Google AdSense and back in around 2004. 5-ish I started hearing about this thing and started looking into it. I knew nothing. Well, I didn’t know nothing but I wasn’t a programmer. I didn’t know PHP at all. My dad had tried to teach me programming for years as a kid but I just had no aptitude for conventional ways to learn how to program, make an address book or whatever. Just stuff I didn’t care about. All of a sudden here was something that I cared about. I was like, wait a minute if I can figure out how to build these pages more than by hand … Because I’ve built a few by hand and got some SEO, I could make a few bucks here and there or whatever, but I saw that unless I could scale this significantly there just was no way this was ever going to become worth the effort I was putting into building these HTML pages by hand.

I started to investigate automated page building tools and then I discovered PHP and I just started figuring stuff out. That, after a few years of course, the early Google slaps happened and Google started smacking everyone around that was doing automated page generation and killed your rankings. All of a sudden you couldn’t make any money anymore. SEO was so unpredictable and so un- scalable that it just wasn’t that appealing anymore. But fortunately just before I threw in the towel I discovered Edwards and realized wait a minute I could buy a click for 5 cents, send it to a page where very once in a while someone’s going to click on an ad and I’m going to make a dollar. And as long as I do that at least so many times … I discovered that was called a conversion rate and I started to figure out all the stuff involved in that and realized if you could just buy the traffic you could scale as much as you want, it suddenly becomes predictable and I can control it. I can just turn it up, turn it down, turn it on, turn it off. I like this.

Cindy: You’ve done a lot of media buys over the years now.

Jonathan: Yeah.

Cindy: Today I’d love it if you could just share some tips for people that are wanting to get started or who have done some media buys and not exactly massively successful. How can they get started and not lose a ton of money? That’s something a lot of people do, they dive straight in they’ve got a bit of money and then they totally screw it up and then they’re way more out of pocket then they were to begin with.

Jonathan: It’s really easy to do that and I have done that many times. It’s been a while now but my most recent foray, I’m not a Facebook guy I don’t really use Facebook at all. I have an account because you’ve got to really but I dove into Facebook ads last year and actually this is one of the things in my notes that I’m going to talk about but I treated Facebook ads, which was an unknown type of traffic to me, like the type of traffic I was used to and I ended up with a 6 to $7,000 hole to show for it. That was not fun, that’s never fun. I backed the heck off of Facebook and said wait a minute now this is just not fitting me and went back to the drawing board with other things that I understood better.

But I put together a list of some notes and I called this the Seven Deadly Paid Traffic Sins. In fact number 7 on the list is assuming that all traffic is created equal and that’s what I did with Facebook. The fact is all traffic sources are absolutely not created equally. Just because you found a keyword that worked on Google AdWords does not mean that keyword is going to perform in any way the same when you go and do a banner buy at Site Scout or whatever. It doesn’t even matter which platform it’s just you can’t assume that all traffic sources are going to behave the same or even close to the same. You have to approach everything from the standpoint of this is a fresh test, I know nothing, and I have to just go into it with that, with no expectations, no understanding, no nothing. I just have to run some stuff and get some data. Until I have data I basically know nothing.

That’s something to really watch out for especially once you’ve gotten your head wrapped around and have a handle on a particular type of traffic you might feel like I’ve been doing AdWords for a while now I’m great with paid traffic. You might find out your great with AdWords may not be so great with just general paid traffic.

Cindy: It all comes down to testing doesn’t it?

Jonathan: Absolutely.

Cindy: We saw a similar thing, internet marketing in general, with the Belcher Button. I don’t know if you saw.

Jonathan: Yeah. I remember that one.

Cindy: The Belcher Button it was really big and it basically happened where, I can’t remember who tested it, but he created this button and it was the thing that tested the best.

Jonathan: Ultimate conversion button.

Cindy: Everyone started using it and it worked really good for a while and then people just assumed that’s what you use and then stopped testing. Testing is really, really key at whatever you’re doing.

Jonathan: Absolutely. And something like that you might find, yeah it works great promoting click bank items and maybe that’s what Perry was doing when he developed it so it works great for that market. But now you go to promote something different and it doesn’t work at all and you’re scratching your head going: “I thought it was the ultimate button.” Well, you test. Another place where it’s really easy to go horribly wrong and I did this early on and I’ve seen lots of other people do it is bidding high to start out. It’s an intuitive, kind of a logical thing, it’s easy to rationalize and think this makes sense I want to get some traction. I don’t want to wait around I want to get some traffic so I know my minimum bid is, let’s say it’s a penny, I’m going to go ahead and bid 25 cents. Just don’t do that. You might not get creamed, it might be okay. You might bid 25 cents ad just get a click or two and you’re okay but you might also find that you set your bid at 25 cents and before your first data has even come in you’ve spent $100 and you’ve got nothing to show for it. That’s just really not fun. It could be worse than that even but traffic can come in so fast when you’re not, especially if you’re not, yet familiar with a particular platform.

The first thing I always ask any at any company I’m going to work with is what’s my minimum bid? And I start there. The absolutely bare minimum. In fact I would say sort of a sub header to this is don’t necessarily believe what they tell you the minimum bid is because numerous times on numerous networks they’ve said the minimum bid is whatever it is and just for grins I see if I can go lower and it lets me. And I find there are times that I talk to other people running the same traffic I’m running from the same place and they think they’re paying the minimum bid, they’re paying twice what I’m paying and there’s still plenty of traffic even below what they tell you. They’ll tell you you can’t get traffic below this. If you’ve ever run AdWords Google does the same thing. They’ll tell you what the minimum suggested bid is and you think Google wouldn’t steer me wrong they know what I should bid, right? No. Never ever believe them. Don’t take them at their face value.

Cindy: When they’re a company they’re out there to make money too.

Jonathan: Absolutely. If they can convince you to bid just an extra penny or two across the billion.

Cindy: That’s a lot of money.

Jonathan: Of impressions that’s a huge amount of money. Yeah, bid as low as you possibly can. You can always increase your bid if you’re not getting traffic and just gradually ratchet it up, but if you start out high and get clobbered now you’re starting out from a hole and that sucks. That is just miserable. Mistakes that I made with Facebook was again thinking that its bid, the way you bid on Facebook was like the way I bid on other things I had done in the past. The net results was that I was bidding way too high to start. I just didn’t understand it yet so I got clobbered.

Another area that’s just super, super critical and isn’t always easy to do depending on the traffic source, is filtering out the “bad” traffic. And bad is very subjective. Bad for you. Doesn’t convert for you, doesn’t give you whatever end result it is that you need to get. I’ve felt for a long time that there is something that matches any traffic. As long as you’ve to the traffic you can find something that will work with it. It’s not really the traffics fault per se it’s your fault for not sifting through it and figuring out where’s the good percentage, where’s the bad percentage, how do I get rid of them, how do I identify what isn’t working for me an what is. You’ve got to do that and then you’ve just got to shut off the stuff that isn’t working. Then all your left is the good stuff.

Cindy: Can I briefly interrupt?

Jonathan: Yeah.

Cindy: What do you use as far as tools, how do you track it?

Jonathan: I’ve actually really always used my own tools. Because from my earliest days of learning all this I was in the midst of learning PHP and at that time in 2006 to 7 there weren’t the plethora of tools that we have today. There’s so many tools for tracking and analysis and back then there wasn’t a whole lot so I just figured it out on my own. A lot of Excel. Lots of time spent in Excel looking at lists of sub Ids and stuff like that. Mostly I use just my own custom stuff but there are so many options available now it’s

Cindy: But nothing that you recommend?

Jonathan: Nothing I can really think of of hand. I tried a few tools that were coming out in like 2008,9 and most of them ended up letting me down one way or another. They weren’t granular enough and really let me see what’s going on or they couldn’t handle high volumes of data. Some of the early tools weren’t really built with the idea that somebody was going to run 20,000 clicks a day through this thing. It was meant for people who were going to do a few hundred maybe. Unfortunately I don’t have anything right now that I use that’s off the shelf, everything is custom.

Cindy: But at least you’re still testing.

Jonathan: Always. You’ve got to have data. This business is all about monetizing data, that’s the blood of what you do is data and I always want more of it if I can get it. Another place in fact that you can get really valuable data is actually your rep at whatever network you’re using. It’s critical. I’ve told a number of people a number of times that a big part of the reason why I had success the years that I was starting out was because I early on developed relationships with my reps at the various networks. Not all reps are created equal for sure just like not all networks are create equal and I’ve had a lot of really crappy reps who really didn’t do anything for me and were never very helpful.

But there was one network in particular that I used really heavily from about 2008 to about 2012 and the rep I happened to be assigned was just amazing. Absolutely understood the way all the numbers interrelate and landing pages and how they impact things, and he got conversion rates. He understood it all which sometimes makes people a little nervous because it’s easy to think if he sees what I’m doing he’s going to go do it for himself. I subscribed to that thinking as well for a good long time and I still do initially when I first start working out with anyone. Of course I don’t trust anybody straight out of the gate with all my data.

But over time he showed me, and we had several conversations about it, that he loved being a rep. He would call me on a Sunday and say what are you doing. I’m like, oh I’m just checking on my stats, I’m in Excel. Blah, blah, blah. And he’s just like man this is why I would never want to do what you do. I come home at the end of the day that’s it, I’m done. I play with my kid, I watch a movie, I go to bed, I have a weekend, I go out of town. I don’t have all this credit card risk because of funding traffic. He’s just like, I love this game it’s totally me. I love all the numbers and figuring it all out and helping you figure out whatever but I do not want to do this.

Cindy: It’s not for everyone, is it? And this entrepreneurial thing is not for everyone because it means that there is risk and we are taking the risk, but the reward (laughs) I could not go back and work for someone having been on the other side now.

Jonathan: Yeah.

Cindy: But some people love it.

Jonathan: That was kind of a light bulb moment for me when he told me that. I had already observed that. I had observed that he really didn’t seem to have any interest in doing an of this himself and I kind of wondered why and when he explained it to be it was like aha. Actually after that I started to trust him more gradually. And over time it was to the point where he had the log-ins to my systems. Sometimes he would ping me and say you know the such and such traffic source just came online or went down and I would just say, “Hey can you log into my campaigns and make some changes for me?” And he would adjust bids for me. I just basically had him be my little helper monkey doing things which was fantastic, but that never would have happened if I hadn’t started to cultivate that relationship and really talk to him a lot. He turned me on to all kinds of …

Cindy: Sometimes we underestimate relationships. Being on the internet it’s quite easy to disassociate yourself from people and from understanding that it actually is people over there but when you make that connection with people and it’s someone that you can trust you need to obviously be careful and not just throw everything at everyone but remembering that it is all about relationships still. Even though you might not have face-to-face time with a lot of these people these relationships are still where things are at a lot.

Jonathan: Yeah I’ve had reps …

Cindy: Sorry. Let me just jump ahead here. What other pitfalls can you lead us in?

Jonathan: A big one for PPC in particular, PPC being pay per click, if you’re paying for every click you want good clicks you don’t want bad clicks and one really easy way to get bad clicks that I know I did a ton when I was starting out and it seems like what you might want to do is engage people’s curiosity in your PPC ad. Right some really curious sounding headline or use a really mysterious image or engage that curiosity. Get them to go, what the heck is this. I want to click. You do not want those clicks. You don’t ever want curiosity clicks. You want clicks from people who know exactly what it is they’re click on and why they’re clicking on it and you’ve basically pre-qualified, pre-filtered, pre-sold them before they ever even click your ad. You really got to watch out for that. It’s so easy to want to be clever.

Cindy: And you get all excited because you’re getting so much traffic but they’re not the right traffic.

Jonathan: That’s exactly right, none of it converts. And you’re like wow my click through rate is through the roof this is awesome then you look at the money and you’re like, all I’m doing is spending 10 times what

I’m earning. This is not good. You’ve really got to be careful with being a great, brilliant, clever copywriter in your PPC ads. That’s usually not what you want to do. But the absolute bar none, by far worst thing that I’ve seen people do and it bit me early on, and it’s related to the filtering out bad traffic, is not passing a sub-ID or using some kind of conversion tracking process to know exactly which click gave you the result you wanted, which keyword, what time of day, what browser they were using. All the data you can possibly get.

So many times I’ve had people hit me up for support on some of the tools that I’ve made, products I’ve put on. They’ll complain about whatever they’re not making money is really the ultimate end result here and I’ll ask then for data just to show me what are you doing, what’s going on, let me see if I can figure out where you’re going wrong. And they’re not passing any. They’re just plain not passing a sub-ID or have it set up wrong or didn’t figure out how their CPA network accepts pixels. Whatever it is but the bottom line is there’s no tracking data coming through. There’s nothing you can do at that point. You’re completely blind, you can’t optimize, you can’t fix anything. Your data is useless so you have to pass some kind of tracking information with every click of your ad or every load of your page or every action. Every form submission somebody does, if it’s a list building exercise. Whatever the event is that brings them to the start of your funnel you’ve got to track that.

Cindy: You get all of your marketing stuff in line and it can be tempting to just avoid having to learn to do that sort of stuff and just assume that what you’re doing is going to work, but you can’t.

Jonathan: A lot of times [crosstalk 00:20:28] people do think it’s just sort of magic. Things just somehow talk to each other mysteriously, magically your server will just know what’s going on over there when they click and everything is just going to somehow communicate to each other and that doesn’t happen. You have to set things up. I’ve told a number of people if I had to recommend the one thing that will bring you the most online success I would probably have to say teach yourself some PHP. I’m not saying go out and become a programmer who’s going to get hired at some startup and start developing web apps. But learn some basic PHP: how variables work, how you pass information in a URL, these kinds of things make the difference. I’ve never seen a super affiliate who didn’t know how to do that stuff.

Cindy: There’s software out there that can do that.

Jonathan: Yes you’ll have to understand it. You’ve still got to understand how the pieces work together.

Cindy: Right.

Jonathan: And if you have absolutely no idea what these things are, like what’s sub ID I don’t know, how do these thing work, you’re going to be screwed up even if you use the software. You’re just going to mess it up. It’s really valuable. Another thing, this actually came form one of my early mentors is paid traffic is a guy by the name of Gauher Chaudhry and he would always say that keywords are like lottery tickets. If you want to win the lottery you need a lot of tickets. I never really thought about it that way but yes the more keywords you have the more potential traffic you can bring and the more potential conversions you can get. If you’ve got a landing page that resonates with that traffic and if all your other pieces are in line ultimately it becomes about I need lots and lots of keywords. That’s not always a great place to start from because it’s easy to build keyword lists these days. It’s easy to get a list of 10,000 keywords on whatever niche and that can be completely overwhelming. It’s too much information, too much data to start with and so forth.

It’s a good idea if you can to start out with just the higher volume keywords so you don’t waste a lot of time on stuff that doesn’t bring you any traffic but eventually, at some point once you’ve got things coming along. You’ve got a landing page that’s working, a product that’s converting or whatever, you got yourself a little funnel build, you need to scale. Your scale when you’re buying traffic is usually doing to come down to I need a lot more keywords. If you can do that, if one guys is running 10 keywords and you can run 1,000 and you can actually track them all you’re probably going to be able to bring a lot more traffic than the other person. Not always but definitely there’s a lot to that idea that your keywords are simply your lottery tickets.

Cindy: Right, but the key here is that you need to be able to track each and every one of those keywords. You’ve got to have something set up so that you know which keywords are the ones that are bringing you the actual sales.

Jonathan: You got it.

Cindy: Ditch the ones that aren’t.

Jonathan: That’s exactly right. A million keywords without tracking, useless, and tracking without keyboard, equally universal. You’ve got to have it all.

Do you have anything else that you would like to share?

Sure. I didn’t intend for this to all tie together so orderly but it does. When you’re testing keywords that’s one area where it pays to understand certain things about risk. For example if I have one keyword and I have a target ROI for my campaign I need to make two to one. If I spend a dollar I need to make $2, that’s my ROI target. And if my offer pays let’s say $5, I’m running something that’s going to pay me $5 per lead or conversion or whatever. 2 to 1, that means for every $2.50 I spend I have to get one conversion. I’ve got to make five dollars every time I spend $2.50. Now I know how often I have to convert. If I’m going to test one keyword I can spend $250 on that keyword and then I better see a conversion. If I don’t, then I now I’m already not hitting my ROI goal. Sometimes when I first, first testing something I’ll go ahead and let it lose a little bit when I’m fine turning and optimizing, whatever, but in general you’ve got to pay attention to that because if you’re spending $8 to make $5 yes you’re getting conversions but you’re losing money – what’s the point?

But where that really starts to get complicated is that’s one keyword. I could spend $2.50 to make $5. Okay great. Now if I want to run 10 keywords I have to test for 10 times that volume. Now I have to test 10 keywords at $2.50 each. I’m going to spend $25 and I better be making $50. If I’m going to test 100 keywords I’ve to be willing to spend at least $2.50 per keyword, 250 bucks. I have to be willing to have a test budget of 250 bucks otherwise I’m not giving these keywords the room to move, room to run. Where that becomes really problematic is sometimes it’s really attractive to look at offers that pay a lot. Somebody will look at an affiliate offer that pays $100, a mortgage lead or something like that. “Oh my god $100 a lead. Holy crap, you can’t go wrong.” But think about that for a second, that means you need to be willing to spend $50 per keyword if you want a 2 to 1 return and you’ve got to have a conversion in there. If you’ve got 100 keywords times 50 you’ve got a $5,000 budget now you’ve got to be willing to spend in order to properly give this the room to run that it needs.

And if you want more than a 2 to 1 ROI, if your personal comfort zone is I want at least 3 to 1 then that changes that relationship. If you’re willing to take a lower margin then that changes it as well but you need to understand the interrelation of your costs and your potential revenue and understand what the real risk is, because if you’ve got 100 keywords and you’re going to be spending $50 apiece on them and you look a that a say that would be $5,000 I’m not willing to do that, I’ll just spend $50 and test this. That’s just a waste of money. You’re better off just flushing 50 bucks down the toilet because you’re not going to get the amount of data you need out of a $50 test. You’ve got to understand upfront what you’re getting into, what it’s going to take in order to get the data you need and then do it. One pivotal, earth changing moment for me in my early days of trying to do CPA marketing around 2006 or so was when all of a sudden it clicked that if I run some traffic and it’s not profitable I didn’t just lose money I bought data. I just paid money for data. Now I need to look at that data and analyze it and do something with it and make it useful.

That changed everything for me because all of a sudden the internal psychology and that feeling in my stomach when I’d hit go on a campaign and watch it start spending and I’m getting all nervous and antsy. Come on where’s the conversions, where’s the conversions. That all went away because I realized I’m going to buy $50 worth of data. Simple. In my mind it’s like going to a store and buying something. I’m not antsy over the price or is this going to be as good I just paid the money, and am I going to like this. It’s just I walked in the store, I put my product down, I paid my money and I go. That’s the way I started to look at running test campaigns was buying data. Admittedly I might have to buy quite a bit of data before I get what I need but when you do get what you need, when something finally hits okay I spent 5 or 600 over the last few days on tests and it didn’t pan out and then finally one does and suddenly I’m making $1500 a day. Take it back in no time but you’ve got to stay the course and be willing to buy that data and know what to do with it after you’ve got it.

Cindy: That’s what I wanted to ask you. What do you do with this data? You buy this data and it’s not converting to something, do you just switch it to something related or you change the ads, what do you do?

Jonathan: All of the above. It does depend a bit on what you’re seeing. For example if I was doing a PPC campaign to a CPA offer let’s say that I see the PPC ad I getting a lot of clicks but the landing page is not converting for those clicks. I see one of two scenarios there. Either I’m getting the right clicks coming in but the landing page is not resonating with the visitor so I need to do something there to make it match better for them, or I’m getting the wrong clicks in the front door. I would probably start with my ad because it’s a lot easier to change an ad than it is to change a whole landing page. I’d start with my ad and look at it and just say if I look at this ad am I engaging curiosity, am I filtering people out, am I pre-qualifying in my ad? Am I making sure that no one in their right mind is going to click this ad unless they actually want what I’m offering. If the answer is no, if I say it’s kind of a cryptic ad it’s mysterious then I’m probably going to start with changing the ad. This ad need to pre- qualify the heck out of every single person that comes by and I don’t want anyone clicking who isn’t crystal clear about why they’re clicking it, what’s on the other side.

Once I feel like I’ve got that if I’ve still got lots of clicks coming through and they’re still not converting then the likely culprit is now the landing page. That starts to get really complex. You’re split testing headlines, you’re split testing placement of images, you’re split testing the images themselves. You’re split testing so many different things and of course you really have to change just one thing at a time. You can’t go changing 27 elements and then if it works you don’t know why it works. That becomes a whole complicated monster in itself.

We might have to save that for a different conversation sometime.

Yeah, split testing is monster but it’s critical, you’ve got to do it. Depending on what you see in the data will help to direct you on what thing you need to tweak.

That is fantastic. We’re going to have to wrap it up pretty soon. Do you have any last minute advice that you can share for people who are just starting out or want to dive into [inaudible 00:31:27] buys a little bit more.

Sure. Definitely know when to pull the plug, don’t fall in love with an offer. It’s so easy to see something and just be convinced that this can’t lose this is an amazing offer or product or whatever, especially sometimes if it’s your own product. Even if it’s not you’re an affiliate and you just think this thing can’t lose. Let the data dictate what you do. You have to do that. If the traffic just doesn’t like what you’re presenting then present it something else. If you’ve got a good source of traffic then it’s your responsibility to find out what does that traffic want. There’s a technique that I used to do that was called throw and stick. It was a technique that Gauher illustrated to me. I ended up calling it slap testing because basically it was you throw a whole bunch of stuff against the wall and it goes splat.

Cindy: And you see what sticks.

Jonathan: What sticks, exactly. What I would do is I built a rotator of my own, a URL rotator, and I would load up, literally, 100 CPA offers across every vertical. No rhyme or reason, no niche, I didn’t care because I never wanted to assume that I knew whether something was going to work or not. I don’t know. I don’t have data yet I have no idea so just throw it all against the wall. I would funnel a big stream of traffic through it and quite often the most surprising thing would jump out of that and work gangbusters. Then I would just shut off the 99 offers that sucked. Okay it cost me 50 or 100 bucks to do that for an hour but then all of a sudden it’s converting like crazy, I’m getting 100s of leads a day and easy. If you find the traffic you’ve got to figure out what’s going to work for it.

Cindy: Don’t assume that you know what’s going to work.

Jonathan: That’s exactly right and don’t fall in love. And if something is working don’t assume it’s going to work forever because it won’t.

Cindy: Awesome stuff. Thank you so much Jonathan for your time and thanks for joining us on the show.

Jonathan: You’re very welcome.

Cindy: I’ve learnt a lot of stuff from you, so thank you so much. Jonathan: No problem. Anytime. Happy to talk to you again.

Cindy: Take care, man. Bye.

Jonathan: Have a great day. Bye-bye.

Cindy: It is fantastic to have you right here on 7 Figure Furnace. For the people who are listening in today, who haven’t heard about you. Why don’t you tell us who Tuan is and how did you get here… what is your thing?

Tuan: Hey Cindy, thanks for having me. Well, first off, hello to your audience. My name is Tuan. There’s so much to my story, so it’s hard to think of a particular spot to start off.

I guess I’ll start off where I got into the industry. I started off as an affiliate marketer. Well, I wouldn’t say I started off as an affiliate marketer, I started off as a regular person trying to make money online. Trying to buy different courses, different products and test different things and just basically try to make money online. I didn’t really know where I was going. One thing led to the next and I got myself into something called CPA marketing, which is basically another form of affiliate marketing. People like to call it its own thing, it’s its own industry.

I got into CPA marketing and I start promoting different offers. For those of you who don’t know, it’s basically finding an offer that someone owns and driving traffic towards it, creating a sale or creating a lead. That person who owns that offer would give you a commission based on the action that occurred. Now, it doesn’t necessarily have to be a sale. It could be someone entering their email, someone entering in their ZIP code, someone signing up, just entering a short form. It doesn’t necessarily have to be a credit card or transaction for you to earn a commission like traditional affiliate marketing.

I got into something and I started promoting lead gen offers. Something in the adult space, which is funny because I never really wanted to get into that space. I just started testing different offers and I found that I got lucky promoting some of these dating offers. These dating offers were really simple. All they required were people to enter in their user name, their email and a password. Pretty much create a free profile similar to creating something on Facebook. Every time someone did that, I would earn a commission.

Now, with a commission it was $3 to $5 every time someone entered this in, but they didn’t have to purchase anything. They didn’t have to use, swipe, pull out their credit card. It was really easy for me to get these conversions. One thing led to the next, I started buying paid advertising. I started driving traffic towards these offers and I ended up making more in commissions with these offers than I was spending in my advertising costs. That’s where I made my money. It was just a simple game of arbitrage and then pretty much ramping it up seeing how much I could spend versus how much I could generate everyday. That’s how I started and gained my success or gaining traction in this space to actually believe that it worked.

Before I did the adult stuff I was promoting some gaming offers. People click on this little game, they download it to their computer or they download it to their mobile phone and I get paid every time it’s installed. That worked out really good at first, but something happened with a company called Google. At the time … this was back in 2007. There was this company, everyone knows it, there was this company called Google. They have this platform called Google AdWords. A lot of people were doing this pay per search or pay per click advertising and that’s what I was doing at that time. I was using pay per click advertising and driving traffic towards these gaming offers. People would type in a video game in the search. My ads would come up, they would click on it read a little bit about the game and then they would download it. Then I would earn a commission.

What happened was, I don’t know, Google didn’t like what I was doing and just banned my account. Pretty much overnight that ruined my entire affiliate marketing business. I mean at that time I was spending about $1,000 a day on Google Adwords for these gaming offers. I was making about $1,500 to $2,000 profit a day promoting these gaming offers. It was really good and going well for a few months until that ban hammer came down. It completely wiped out my business because I didn’t have anywhere else to promote it. I didn’t know how to promote it anywhere else. That was really tough for me to make that kind of money and feel like, “Yes! I made it. I finally arrived. I made it here. I did what everyone talks about making money online. I’m living that life.”

For that to come down and happen to me, it was horrible. It took a long time for me to bounce back from that. I jumped around and tested different things. That’s how I ended up testing these adult dating offers. It was because I was scrambling around trying to find something that worked. I tried skincare offers. I tried diet offers. I tried click bank stuff, promoting other people’s information products. I just couldn’t get anything to work and then luckily I stumbled upon promoting these dating offers, these lead gen offers. That’s how it worked out.

Cindy: That’s fantastic. You’re doing quite a lot with these lead gen offers, aren’t you?

Tuan: Yeah, it’s pretty crazy to think about it now because it’s really simple. I think when it comes down to it the name of the game is arbitrage. It’s how much can you spend and how much can you make. If you’re making a low margin, if you’re spending $100 a day and you’re making back $120 which means you spend $100 on advertising. You make $20 profit, you’re making a 20% return. Now for some people that’s too low. That’s not worth their time. People are looking for 100%, 200% ROI and et cetera et cetera, but if you take that $100 spend and you turn it to a $1,000 spend then now you’re making $200 a day. You spend $10,000 a day, you’re making $2,000 a day. At the end of the day for me it wasn’t really how much margin of profit can I make. It was basically how high can I scale this and how much can I net per day? If my goal was to make $10,000 or $20,000 a day, it wouldn’t really matter to me how much I had to spend to get there as long as I just hit that mark.

That whole ROI or how much return you should make off your advertisement is kind of a myth to me. If you have the funds, if you have the cash flow you just have to do what you can to hit the net profit.

Cindy: Right, I mean it’s a bit risky though if you don’t have …

Tuan: That’s right.

Cindy: You know, if you don’t have a huge buffer. If you can’t get 200%, 300% ROI and then you throw $1,000 on a thing and it comes to nothing or you know [crosstalk 00:06:32].

Tuan: That’s really true and that’s why I try to tell people to test very small. At the same time you have to build your tolerance to paid advertising. I mean the very first time that you sign up to a traffic network and you pull out your credit card and you deposit $100 to fund your advertising, it’s really hard to hit that submit button. Because you’re like, “Oh my god, it’s $100 and it’s so much money.” The funny thing is after you do it so many times next thing you know you’re just swiping your card for like $1,000, $5,000 and it’s nothing.

I mean there’s a lot of people who do Facebook advertising and you know they fund their accounts religiously every single day. They don’t even bat an eye to it. It’s something where you … when it comes to paid advertising and that’s pretty much what I would suggest people to do. It’s to focus on paid advertisement because there’s so much control. You can scale your business. There’s just so many benefits to paid advertisements, but you’re going to have to do it and build your tolerance and slowly get used to spending more money and some more money. Next thing you know it’s not a big deal.

Cindy: Right. So how [crosstalk 00:07:33] do people avoid … this might be a really newbie question, but how do people like you know … if you are investing that $100, how do you make sure that that’s going to bring you more than what you’re spending? Because that’s the whole goal of it, isn’t it? I mean we want to actually earn income and not just pay them $5,000. We want to be able to give them $100 and make some money back.

Tuan: Absolutely. Here’s the thing. I’ve noticed people think that the more they spend, that the more guaranteed they are to make profit. It’s really not like that. I tell people to test in small amounts. You know test $100. 90% of … I … pretty much 100% of the time, the first time that you go about something, purchasing paid advertising, you’re going to lose money. You’re going to not get a profitable campaign. You might spend, you might deposit $100, spend that $100 on traffic and make that first buy. Well not a ton of money, but you’re going to more than likely lose money.

Here’s the thing, you’re not actually losing money, you’re actually buying data. That’s really the secret to any media buyer. It’s the money that’s spent to acquire data which is how many clicks? How many conversions? What’s your click through rates? How much money did you make? How much money did you lose? What Adword worked? What didn’t? You have to spend that money, accept that you’re probably going to take a loss on that data. Then pause everything, go back, take a look at the data and find out some of the things that did work. Then find the things that did work and then you do another buy, invest money and then you focus strictly on the stuff that actually appeared to work.

When I say appear to work it’s kind of like when you spend $10 and you get a conversion you can’t really base your judgment just off that $10 spending. It’s not enough money, enough ad budget. It’s not spent across enough time of day, days of the week, et cetera et cetera. It’s kind of a fluke. If you were to spend a little bit of money and say, “Oh wow, this ad gave me one conversion. Let’s spend all our money on this ad.”

What you’re going to find out later is when you ramp up the ad spend on that ad, it’s probably going to fail because it was insignificant data. You want to … the way I look at it is you want to do a large enough data sample. You want to spend not too little, but not too much, but just enough to get enough clicks, enough leads, conversions to say, “Hey, now I can make a qualified judgment.

Looking at this data to say, “You know what? We had hundreds of conversions, hundreds of clicks, et cetera et cetera. We know that if we narrow down on these things the averages and chances of this stuff working should sustain and hold itself.” Theory is test small, but test enough, test thoroughly. For me personally I rather lose money knowing that something doesn’t work for sure than spend money and then pause something and say, “Oh! Maybe that does work, maybe it doesn’t. Let me test this or maybe let me go back to that a week later and see if that worked.”

That’s what usually happens with a lot of newbies. They bounce around. They pause stuff. They try something new without thoroughly giving it significant data, a significant test. Test small, in small batches, look at your data come back analyze it and then once you see something that works that shows promise, slowly ramp it up. There’s no point in throwing more money at something that doesn’t work. It’s not a recipe to improve your success rate. It just doesn’t. A lot people think, “Hey, I have X amount of money, so much money. I’m guaranteed to make money.” It’s a benefit to have money to spend, but you got to test small. Everything you do test small and then scale.

Cindy: Okay, so some people will say you should be sending it through a funnel so you can capture a lead and then you know … how do you structure your promotions if you’re sending to … do you send it directly to the affiliate offer or do you … what do you do?

Tuan: Good question, Cindy. Here’s the thing, a funnel is very important. Typically in a dating or I’ll just say dating vertical, the dating niche or even just adult dating/casual dating niche, the funnel is typically a banner creative. It starts with a banner creative and on that banner creative it’s a simple image with a headline, a short call to action. Some type of button, allows … it just makes people click on that banner. It could go from that and they go to a pre sell landing page. It’s basically a page that you create and you craft which kind of improves your chances of that visitor converting. It’s not direct linking the banner to the offer. It’s that landing page in the center, that pre sell page that’s where the magic happens because think about it. If I were to promote an offer and all I did was promote a banner like promote a banner and promote it to an offer. If you’re another affiliate and you do the exact same thing where’s my competitive advantage?

If you use the same banner as me, if you’re promoting the same offer as me, where’s the competitive advantage? There is no competitive advantage for either you or me. We’re just basically fighting each other for conversions, but when you add that element of having a pre sell page in between the banner and the offer it allows you to increase your conversion. Now you can persuade people more cleverly with better copywriting. You can do other things like capture people’s information before they get to the offer like maybe have them submit their email before they get to the offer page. That way if they don’t complete the offer you can follow up via email sequence and retain that lead. Maybe get a longer lifetime value out of that customer.

There’s different [inaudible 00:13:06], but for me personally, I found that just going from banner to landing page to the offer, those three elements are the main things. When you get a little bit more advance you can set up opt in pages on your landing pages and then capture emails and stuff like that. What I found is most people like that idea of capturing emails, but they don’t ever put in the effort of creating a powerful offer response sequence to actually monetize it. They do all these steps to get the email, but they don’t even send any emails. Right?

We all know the more steps that someone has to do on the landing page, the less people are going to fill it out. If it’s just a single landing page where it says, “Hey, here’s some more information about the offer. Click here to get the offer.” You’re going to get a higher click through rate, but if you had stuff like enter your first name, cell phone number, your email before you get your offer it’s like you’re conversion rate on your landing page, CTR rate is going to drop drastically. Because people aren’t going to want to go through the loops and hoops to finish your landing page. You’re going to acquire less leads and less people are going to see the offer which means you’re going to get less conversion and generate less revenue.

I find that just doing the simple banner, simple landing page, pre sell them and then straight to the offer that is the best funnel. You can direct link, but like I said there’s no advantage there.

Cindy: No, I mean there’s not at all. Yeah, so you’re mostly just pre selling them and then pushing through. How do you find good affiliate offers?

Tuan: Here’s the thing, luckily I’ve been in this space for a long time so I have a real good post on that particular vertical because you know all the advertisers. You know what new offers are coming out. I’ve been doing it for years so I kind of can see the whole market place.

For people who are just starting out, the very best ways to find what offers are performing, whether it’s in dating or adult dating or casual dating or any vertical that you’re in. Skincare, gaming, mobile apps, whatever you’re promoting, the very best way is to contact your account rep. Whatever affiliate network or CPA network that you’re working with, those people are like the gate keepers. They manage hundreds or thousands or several hundreds of affiliates every single day. They see the numbers. They see the offers that are converting. They see what EPC’s and how much volume these offers are doing so they know from a bird’s eye view what’s working on the network. You have no idea. You’re kind of like a lone ranger, you’re by yourself wondering what’s going on. You’re testing different things.

I found that the huge differentiating factor between someone who is successful and someone who is not successful, it really boils down to are you promoting an offer that is converting? Are you promoting a hot offer? You can have the best banner, the best traffic source. You can have the best pre sell pages, but if you’re pushing it all towards an offer that just doesn’t convert, all your efforts are just going to waste. On the other side of it, you can have a poor banner, a poor pre sell page, but if you have an incredible offer that just converts like fire, you’re going to make sales. You’re going to make the leads. You got to find the hot offers so the first step is talk to your account rep. Say, “Hey, you know what? What’s doing the most volume on your network? What has the most EPC? What has the most lead per day? Can you give me advice?”

A lot of these companies or these networks they’re in the business of generating leads and sales. That’s how they make money as the network. The more lead and sales they make, the more margin they make regardless if you’re profitable or not. As long as you created the sale date, they take their share, right? They’re in the business of helping you promote the best offers. They’re going to give you that information. They’re going to tell you, “Hey, this diet offer works” or “this dating offer does really well.” Then take that information and kind of run with it.

Another thing you can do is do some manual spying. Login to your browser, look at ads. If you start seeing the same ads or the same type of offer being promoted, it’s more than likely that’s someone is profitable with it or it’s popular. You can do some manual spying. You just go around and kind of see for yourself. Take note of what offer that is or what network that offer may be on and kind of do your research. Follow up and then get in touch with that offer and test promoting it yourself. Well that’s how I do it.

Cindy: You do it, but you spend a lot on media buys. If someone were to sign up, do you instantly get a rep? Does everyone get a rep? How do you get in contact with a rep if you haven’t put a lot of money into a network?

Tuan: Well typically when you sign up to a network there’s usually an application process. They want to ask you a few questions like what’s your background? Are you new? How many years have you been doing this? How much are you spending per month? Et cetera, et cetera. They usually get your Skype details or some instant messaging details or they might even give you a phone call and do a brief interview before they set you up on a network. Once you go through that process and you do get accepted, there’s usually an account manager that’s assigned to you. There’s an email contact. There’s a Skype contact. You have kind of you know …

Cindy: So you shouldn’t be shy. You can just go in and talk to them?

Tuan: You definitely have to be proactive. Like I said they’re dealing with dozens of people a day if not hundreds of people a day. They might overlook you, they might forget about you. One thing that’s for sure,

if you haven’t reached out or spoke to anybody at a particular network that you’re advertising or you’re working with, there’s dozens of different networks out there. Find somebody who’s willing to work with you, willing to help you grow your business. One sure fire way to get noticed is to generate sales and leads. They’re forced to reach out to you because at that point they’re like, “Who is this guy? Who is this person generating these sales?” You make them come to you in a sense if you want to go that route, but more than likely if you’re new, you’re going to have questions. You’re going to wonder what offers to promote. How to promote it and so on and so forth. What you have to do is really just reach out, reach out.

Facebook is really powerful nowadays. A lot of these account or affiliate managers or A.M. or whatever you want to call them, Account Managers. They’re on Facebook. They’re promoting their companies, their offers, your business within Facebook groups, marketing groups and different groups of Facebook. They’re on Facebook. All it takes is just reaching out to them, sending a message and saying, “Hey, I noticed you work for this company. I’m looking for these types of offers to promote.” That kind of gets the ball rolling and that’s how you get in contact with someone. You definitely need to work well with this person and build relationships with their Account Manager. There’s just no way around it.

Cindy: Right, I mean if you want to know what’s actually going to be selling and what’s going to make you money. Which is what we want, right?

Tuan: Yeah, that’s right. Here’s a thing, it’s like the manual spying thing that’s probably a really effective way to just kind of go about it too.

You go in there and just manually spy. You click around and you act like you’re a regular customer, visitor seeing ads on the internet. That’s a quick way to find out what’s working. It also let’s you …

Cindy: How do you track it back … so if you see an ad over and over, how do you know which network is selling? How do you find out how to promote that product? Have you seen [crosstalk 00:20:36]

Tuan: It’s really simple. I mean there’s simple ways like let’s say you see a banner, you click on it. You click through the pre sell pages and you can finally get to the offer page. You just take note of the offer name of whatever product that it is. It could be whatever dating site, whatever you end up at. You can go to places like and it’s just a directory where they show what offers are on what networks and what pay outs they offer for that particular product or service. That’s a quick way you find the name. You go to, you type it in search. It will show you what networks it’s at or they hold them on. Then you just go contact that network, sign up and boom. There it is.

Cindy: Yeah, that sounds good. Do you have any other advice for people that are just going to get started on media buys?

Tuan: Here’s the thing when a lot of people first get start, they’re really intimidated. They want to start advertising on the smallest traffic source. They want to spend the least money. They want to do the littlest thing they possibly can. They’ll go to a second tier traffic network because they feel there’s less competition. The truth of the matter is the media buying space is a dog eat dog world. Everything you do, the more ads you promote the more eyeballs on your ads that means there’s more competition. There’s more people seeing your stuff so all of your advertisements will get copied. It will get ripped at some point in time. The more volume you do, the faster it’s going to be copied by someone else because these people see these ads. They want to mimic your ads.

My suggestion is this. The same amount of effort it takes to make $100 a day profit in media buying is relatively the same amount of effort it takes to make $1,000 a day profit or $5,000 a day profit. There really is no difference. If you were to … for me personally, these dating offers that I promote, I promote in big countries like United States, UK, Canada, I focus on heavy traffic volumes. A lot of people that I talk to who are newbies they say something like, “I just want to promote this offer in this little itty bitty country somewhere.”

I’m like, “Don’t waste your time.” Because if you were to get your campaign perfected and actually get it working, that little country only has potential to make you $100 a day profit at its maximum because there’s just so much traffic there. If you go to the United States you might not be able to take the whole pie, but you get a small slice of United States. That small slice is bigger than that entire pie of that little small country. Do you get what I mean? Like I said just getting things dialed in and working [crosstalk 00:23:13]. Then you just ramp it up.

My suggestion is don’t be afraid of competition. That’s just a sign that’s proving that there’s money being made in that particular country or that particular traffic source. When it comes to traffic sources focus on big traffic sources, you know The Google’s, the Facebook’s. What I focus on a lot is the adult traffic networks because there’s a ton of adult traffic. I’m not necessarily caring about what type of traffic it is as long as it’s quality traffic. As long as the people there, the eyeballs that see my ads there are actually people that click and convert and purchase and generate leads. That’s all that matters to me. I wouldn’t care if it’s Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, Google, it doesn’t really matter where as long as it’s a huge source of traffic.

That’s the main thing because look, at the end of the day when it comes to media buying it’s kind of like everyone wants to do the big buys. Everybody wants to make $10,000, $20,000 a day. The only way you can make $10,000, $20,000 a day profit off any traffic source is if you had the ability to spend that much a day there. If you’re working with a traffic source that only allows you to spend $200, $300 a day the chances of you actually turning that into a five figure profit per day [camp 00:24:30] monster, it’s relatively small. I focus on huge traffic sources. When it comes to the adult stuff, I focus on two sites. These are basically galleries, you know sites where people are watching these videos. I would go ahead and place ads and display ads on the side. That’s what I do.

The advice for newbies is focus … well narrow it down, focus on large traffic sources. Don’t be scared of competitive areas. It’s just showing you that it works there, that people are making money there. Test early, test small and scale it up from there. When it comes to me … right now a lot of people don’t know it, but I spend … I have spent over a million dollars a month on paid advertisements just with adult alone consistently. I know what I’m talking about when it comes to media buying on a large level, but I also started off as the guy spending $50 a day, $100 a day. I understand what’s that like too. When I test new traffic sources, I’m the same guy. I’m testing $100 here, $50 here.

To get to that level like I said it’s going to take time. You just got to be devoted and build your tolerance and not worry about the next man’s success or the next man’s … or how much money they’re spending on ads. Just focus on yourself. Someone else’s success doesn’t mean it’s your failure. It’s like you got to work, stay dedicated. The first 10 campaigns you run are probably going to fail. The next one after that might be the winning campaign that turns everything around and you recoup all your losses. That’s just how it is. It’s almost like a little gamble in a sense, but paid traffic is the most predictable, the most sustainable, scalable type of business model I think compared to SEO. I’m not talking about SEO. It has a great place, but anybody that does SEO knows that it can be very unpredictable and it can be slow. It can be slow to get results. You can spend weeks trying to …

Cindy: Yeah, media buys you can just …

Tuan: Media buy you just [crosstalk 00:26:27]

Cindy: Get it right and you can scale, yeah. Before we head out, I was just thinking do you have any advice to share about tracking. How do you track your ads? Do you … you know … obviously you need to know where the sales are coming from, where the traffic is actually coming from. How do you manage that? Any advice you …

Tuan: I’m really glad you brought that up because I almost forgot to mention that. It’s very important. If you’re doing media buying and

you’re doing it blindly just kind of running ads and just guessing to see what works. Don’t do that. Don’t ever do that. You need to be tracking every single thing you do. You need to be tracking every single variable, every single metric that you can possibly track. Which is what banners are being clicked. Which landing pages are being clicked through. What offers are converting?

Here’s another thing, when you promote an offer that same offer might have 10 different variations of the same offer. The product owner might create several variations of their offer page or their sales page just to see which one works better. You need to test that as well. Don’t just test one single offer. Test multiple offers and test multiple variations of that offer sale page because there might be a video sales page. There might be a long copy page. There might be whatever type of page that converts better than next. You won’t know unless you test, but you won’t know if you don’t track what’s working.

There’s different tools out there. A lot of people know some of these tools. There’s CPV Lab that’s basically an affiliate tracking plat … a click tracking platform. There’s Volume, that’s a huge one. There’s just so many in the space coming out. I think that when it comes to which one I should use, you should definitely pick one that works great for you as user interface wise. Because something might work great for someone else, but the interface might be just clunky and not just mesh well with how you like to work versus something else that you use that you like. Someone else says, “No, that’s not the newest, coolest thing on the block. Why are you using that?” At the end of the day as long as it tracks your clicks, which banners and tracks your conversions, you’re good to go.

Definitely pick up a tracking platform and they’re relatively cheap nowadays. There’s stuff that’s month to month, $99 a month. Some of them are like one time fees. You self host it and put on your servers and you manage it yourself. It’s relatively not expensive and if you’re doing any type of paid advertising it’s just part of the business. It’s a must have. If you’re not using one you’re really just shooting in the dark and there’s just no way that knows what’s working.

Cindy: Yeah, that’s right. [crosstalk 00:29:10] Most of those have free trials and stuff so you can give yourself a 30 day challenge. Get yourself, you know, get started. Actually really dive into it and try it out, but yeah tracking is really important which I think a lot of people …

Tuan: It’s really important and it is complicated. Like anything else there’s a small learning curve, but once you know how to set up your offers and tracking links and you know how to use this and that and you know how to pull reports and look at your data. It doesn’t take long.

Media buying can sound complicated, but in reality it’s not rocket science. You can learn this particular skill relatively fast by just launching a few campaigns. Understanding your tracking. Understanding how to look at reports. Understanding how to optimize. It’s one of those things where people are hesitant to do it because they feel that it’s some rocket sciencey type of thing where it’s just too complicated, but it’s not. I can tell you I’m not smarter than anybody else on this call who’s listening into this. It’s just I spent the time to learn that skill set. It’s like using Photoshop or using Dreamweaver. It’s like these are complicated things, these are so advance and you spend about a week or two doing it and it’s simple after that. When it comes to media buying definitely expect the learning curve, but embrace it because it’s really powerful. There’s a lot of things we do with it.

Cindy: Fantastic. Well thank you so much Tuan for being here on the show. I appreciate all the input that you’ve had. I’m sure that a lot of people are probably ready to go out and jump into some media buys and give it a try. Give it a good try guys. If you’ve got any questions or comments please come over and leave some comments. If you’ve got any questions for either of us post them on the blog over at 7 Figure Furnace and we would love to be in touch with you. Thank you so much for being on the show.

Tuan: Thank you Cindy for having me. Cindy: Alright, take care man. Bye.

Cindy: Matt, it is so great to have you here and I know you have a lot to share. We’re just going to dive straight into some Facebook advertising tips. You’ve told me heaps about custom audiences for people who are doing Facebook marketing. Obviously Facebook marketing is where things are at if you want to try and build your audience or get a whole lot of traffic to things really fast. You’re going to teach us some stuff.

Let’s talk a bit about custom audiences. Lots of our audiences might be familiar, but your approach is a little bit different in the way that you use custom audiences. Why do you want to build them? How do you build custom audiences?

Matt: That’s a really great question. Thank you, by the way, for the great introduction, Cindy. I absolutely love your podcast.

Cindy: Woohoo!

Matt: If you’re listening and you’re not subscribed, you need to do that right now. Make sure you do that before you go any further.

Cindy: Thanks, Matt.

Matt: Sure. It’s awesome. One of the first Facebook advertising tips I’d like to share is about custom audiences… What the thing is about custom audiences is we’re going to talk about a couple of different sources. One is really adding that custom audience pixel to your website, your lead capture pages, your websites, and then dialing those in by url.

The other, though, that you can really take advantage of … I’m going to make an assumption that everyone listening to this either has some kind of list. If you’re maybe have a mom and pop shop and you just have a fishbowl where people write down their names and phone numbers, you can actually target people based on their phone numbers in a custom audience. The easiest way is just to simply import your email list.

Once you do this, now you really need to stand out in front of this audience. What happens is, right, you buy a product. You’re on one list. Then you’re like, “Oh, I’m getting emails,” so you buy another thing. Pretty soon … If I showed you my inbox, I don’t delete emails, but I’m seriously on … I have like, 500,000 emails in my inbox.

If you send me an email … If I send me an email I may not even find it, right? You have to stay in front of your audience at all times. One of the easiest and most cost effective ways of doing this is, for example, if you sell software. A lot of people listening to this right now may be selling software, they’re in the [inaudible 00:02:13] marketplace, or [inaudible 00:02:15] or whatever. If you’re selling software, take your demo videos and start running those to your custom audiences.

If you’re comfortable on camera, as you are, shoot videos and run those to your audiences. What happens is it’s really interesting. It’s like, Inception, right? People don’t know how the ideas and concepts really get into their head, but they know they’re in there. It builds like and trust, right?

Cindy: Exactly.

Matt: In the pick up community, right? What they figured out was if it takes 3 dates to get to the girl to come home with you, instead of trying to schedule Monday, Wednesday, Friday, and have a great weekend, what they would figure out is is that they would try to figure out how to have 3 dates all in the same night. Right? They’d go to the movie, they’d go to the vending machine at the hotel, they’d go watch a movie, you get ice cream. Whatever. The mind doesn’t really think in timelines. It’s like, oh, I’ve known this person forever as I’ve traveled from place to place to place.

When you start running multifaceted content … They see a video of you, right? You’re dressed this way. Then they see you dressed another way, or they start seeing your promoted posts. A piece of content that you’re running to them on Facebook. All of a sudden they become more aware of you.

I’ll give you an example of actually this at work. It was really interesting. I’ve had a client for years. They had literally 1 segment of their business they had not emailed this list in like, 5, 6 months, right? I said, “Okay, we need to sort of” … They’re going to start re- engaging with you. He sends out an email, like the open rates kind of sucked because in 5, 6 months people start, like, where did the guy go? Did he end up homeless? Right? Whatever it may be, right? This is an interesting marketplace.

We look at it. I go, “Okay, we got to fix this.” Started running engagement campaigns. Videos, promoted posts, stuff from the fan page. What happened? The onslaught of ads actually led to doubling the opt-in rate because … Then what happened was people were actually replying and saying, “Hey, it’s great to see you back. I’m seeing your ads all over the place.” Right? [crosstalk 00:04:33].

Cindy: That’s funny because you say all over the place. I hear that often from people whose Facebook campaigns that you manage. They’re like, “I can’t escape Matt’s ads. They are everywhere.” That’s what you’re really good at. The thing is you’re not even spending tons and tons of cash. It’s just that you’re targeting your audiences so powerfully so that when they’re looking at these it looks like, it feels like, you’re absolutely everywhere.

Matt: Absolutely, and it works really well. Not only do I have some of those people on like, for example, an audience that has promoted a launch for me. They may have been on one of my other websites where I’m retargeting them straight from a website custom audience as well. I had a [inaudible 00:05:17] hit me up. He’s like … This has been going on for like, a year and a half with this kind of targeting. He said, “Dude.” He goes, “I can’t get away from your ads.” Just like you said. I said, “Yeah, it’s called a no escape campaign. It’s impossible.” He actually messaged me, same guy messaged me the other day. He’s like, “Dude, I need to talk to you about Facebook ads. By the way, I still see your ads like, every day.”

It’s good for building our brand. It’s good for building authority. It’s also really good for keeping attention because a calendar really fills up in our market space. I mean, there was a day last year there were 21 new launches in 1 day. I can’t even talk to all those people to figure out what they’re launching and everything. I mean, the calendar is just like, crazy.

Cindy: Crazy. Yeah. No, it’s absolutely insane. Also, when you get it really targeted and you’ve got your audience, the price actually gets quite a bit lower. You can control things a lot more.

Matt: Oh, absolutely. The other thing is that you will have people contact you directly. Instead of just engaging with your website and instead of just going there, they may hit you … For example, say you’re selling a product on how to … Software, for example, or how to run Facebook ads. They may hit you up and say, “Look, I’m not really interested in buying another course. Can you do this for me?” Or “I’m not really interested in learning about launches. Can you just do this for me?” I don’t want to do it, dude. That’s the interesting thing as well, right?

Cindy: Yeah. You ran a lot of campaigns for a lot of people in the industry now. A few people, not you, a few people get banned from Facebook. Do you have any facebook marketing tips to avoid getting their accounts banned?

Matt: Yeah. There’s actually a couple of things. One of the things that has happened with people is scaling up too quickly, right? Say you have a $5 a day ad campaign and all of a sudden it’s like, $20 a day, $200 a day. That’s a big shift if you do that in 4 days, right? If you go from like, $5 a day to $200 a day, Facebook going to say, “Wait a second. We need to find out about this,” because they want to make sure they get their money.

Outside of that, the tricky thing with Facebook compliance is they can’t tell you. It’s like a rep told me. I was having a conversation with a Facebook rep. They said, “Look, we know it when we see it.” If you think back to like, the CPA campaigns for weight loss we were seeing a year and a half ago for the coffee bean, right? We were seeing fruits and vegetables and different kinds of food in a shape of human genitalia.

Cindy: Right. Yeah, that got a bit silly.

Matt: Now, in Facebook’s defense, there is probably no one on the board that saw that one coming. Right? They probably do not have a policy actually against that, I would bet, until probably now. Right? They know it when they see it. Now, they’ve had to actually pencil that one in.

They don’t want to come out and say here’s what you have to do for compliance because the issue becomes we know marketers will work around that. A couple of other things really quickly is negative ads, right? Facebook, one of the things they want to is they want to keep it as sort of a positive environment as possible, right? It’s one thing for you to say, how you can easily create eye popping, highly engaging videos that will engage your visitors from start to finish. Right?

Cindy: [crosstalk 00:09:06]. Yep.

Matt: Yeah. That’s a little long and it may not fit, but they get the idea. It’s different than saying “Dude, your videos suck” in all caps. Right?

Cindy: Right.

Matt: Totally different. You don’t want to do that, no. Also, the outrageous claims, right? We’ve seen a lot of this before in sort of the product launch community and other spaces. For example, if someone says, “Hey, you can make $10,000 a day with this method with free traffic.” Right? Or, you watch. In the next 30 seconds I’m going to teach you how to have Playboy bunnies stalking your house. You can’t make those kind of claims on Facebook.

Outside of that kind of stuff, one of the biggest mistakes is that when people are running traffic to their website they don’t have all the legal stuff in place. This is really simple. I’m not a lawyer, I don’t play one on TV. I have watched a couple episodes of Law & Order. Outside of that, I’m not a legal expert, but the thing is you want to make sure you have privacy pages, about us, refund, terms of service, how the data is going to be used. I also add a disclaimer that basically is a long version of hey I’m not affiliated with Facebook, any of its networks, or partners. Blah blah blah.

Someone lands on that, they know it’s not part of Facebook. It gives Facebook a little bit of a warmer, fuzzier feeling before they throw the ban hammer down on you. I mean, nothing’s perfect. I mean, you can use all that and if you’re running traffic to illegal stuff it’s not going to help you any. That’s some simple stuff people can do.

Cindy: Right, so keep it positive, keep it reasonable so it’s not totally outrageous claims, and make sure that you are nice and legally doing everything above board. Matt: Oh, absolutely.

Cindy: Yeah. I mean, if you’re not doing shady things. I mean, I know some people that do get banned, though, and they’re not doing anything shady. Sometimes just pushing the envelope a little bit because we’re marketers, you know, you want to try and push it and just grab peoples’ attention and stuff. Sometimes they’ll just get fussy.

Matt: Oh, absolutely. Sometimes you have to push the envelope. The thing is is that even … Sometimes your ads will either … Even ads will get declined or sometimes your account can get flagged because of some sort of automated reason. You can appeal that and contact Facebook. Many times it’s …

I remember 1 example on the ad side. I remember … I think it was Don Wilson that got an ad actually denied because it was a picture of a dog. It said, “You cannot sell alcoholic products on Facebook.” Obviously there’s a complete disconnect by whoever the Facebook rep was looking at that ad, or they were thinking about having a drink. One or the other. I don’t know. Yeah, that’s a ludicrous example, but it actually happened. Right?

I mean, obviously appeal that and get it fixed. Yeah, I mean, you can get ad declining for whatever reason. Sometimes you just have to appeal and have a human actually sort of review it or address it with a Facebook rep.

Cindy: Right. Let’s talk just a little bit about targeting. When you go and set up an ad, there’s a whole lot of different options there. You can set it up with desktop, mobile, and all of that sort of thing. How do you set up your ads?

Matt: Well, I like to target sort of desktop right hand side, desktop news feed, mobile right hand side, and mobile news feed all separately.

The reason for that is is that what’s interesting is we get a lot of engagement, for example, on mobile. Especially if there’s a big product launch coming. We want to make sure we’re hitting everyone’s phones because almost all the traffic now, everyone’s checking [inaudible 00:13:16] their email, they’re surfing the web on mobile.

One of the interesting things, for example, a client of mine, almost all his buyer traffic that came from his emails were all desktop. Because we were using tracking links, we look and it’s almost all the buyers were desktop. They would actually look at it, and same audiences would actually look at it on mobile, but they wouldn’t have time, for example, to watch a 20 minute sales video on their mobile phone.

Cindy: Right. That makes sense.

Matt: They would have to wait until they get home. We would actually run like, news feed ads of hey this is coming. I have a cool bonus for you on the mobile side, and also on the desktop side, but also on the desktop that’s where we would direct link. What we don’t want to do is necessarily hit them on that specific list. We had data that basically said they don’t buy this stuff all on mobile, so we only direct link to the offer when they were on their desktop.

Cindy: Okay. That sounds tricky. You have to set up like, 4 different campaigns? Is that what you’re saying?

Matt: You can do just different ad sets so everything’s just running separately. Yeah, you can just create, basically clone it, and just do everything inside of Power Editor.

Cindy: Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s easy enough.

Matt: Yeah. Yeah. I don’t try to make it complicated, but it’s interesting seeing the different behaviors. Every data sets different. For example, someone in the dating market’s going to respond differently than someone in the software market that’s looking to buy a software that is going to help them optimize, I don’t know, their Facebook ads, for example. Right?

Cindy: Yep. Yeah.

Matt: You got to just [inaudible 00:15:01] behavior.

Cindy: The big thing at the moment. Have you had any facebook marketing tips in regards to Facebook leads? A lot of people are now sending people, because you can capture leads with like, the lead advertising thing. Have you played around with that much?

Matt: Oh. The really cool thing about that. Now you can actually do the … Use videos for lead ads, which is really cool. One of the cool things about lead ads, especially with lead ads, is when you go after … You can go after different marketers in the market, for example. For example, some of the biggest known marketers. If you could actually capture emails from a list, like Frank Kern, [inaudible 00:15:41], how much is that data worth? You know those people spend a lot of money.

You can actually run your lead ads to specifically target those audiences and capture those leads right off of Facebook. Add them to your auto responder or get them onto your go-to webinar. Sell them whatever you want. It’s really cool and it’s changing the way list building is done on a certain level. If you look back 3 or 4 years ago, the main way of list building was really you could do it with blogs and SEO and petty traffic, but really what solo ads, big media buys, that kind of thing.

Instead now with flex targeting … Let me mention this really quickly. Flex targeting is really cool. With flex targeting inside of Facebook, you can basically say, “I’ll go into power editor and say, okay, I want to target people who like Tony Robbins. Okay, cool.” Everyone knows that probably that’s listening to this. Also, you can say, “Okay, if they like Tony Robbins and they like Frank Kern and they like Star Wars and they live in San Diego.” [crosstalk 00:16:55].

Cindy: That is pretty targeted, yep. Matt: Right. Now [crosstalk 00:16:59]. Cindy: And you’re a certain age. Yeah.

Matt: Yeah. Right between the ages of 18 to 25, or 40 to 65. Whatever. You can target that specific. You can actually drill it down so you can customize your offers specifically for that highly targeted group of people. It’s making what was sort of big data’s sort of demographics 5 or 6 years ago available for sort of everyone to really drill down so they can have super laser targeted ads and generate leads.

If you know that person likes Frank Kern, Tony Robbins, and Star Wars, and they live in San Diego, it’s a totally different type of lead than one you’re going to pick up, for example, off a YouTube video or off a Twitter or off your own custom audience more than likely, or even off a solo ad. Then, once you have them in auto responder, you can write an email sequence specifically tailored to only those people. Basically they’re going to feel like you’re talking directly to them.

Cindy: Yeah. No, they’ll totally get it. You can do some segmenting because then you can build in … If you know that they like Star Wars, for example, you can build in a whole lot of analogies, marketing analogies, to what. You don’t have to clearly state that that’s why they’re on the list, but you actually just connect with them and they identify with you better.

Matt: Right. You may say something like, how to use the force in your email marketing, right?

Cindy: [crosstalk 00:18:29]. We could have a whole lot of fun with that. Matt: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.

Cindy: Don’t go to the dark side.

Matt: But they have cookies.

Cindy: Exactly. Oh, dear. Moving along. I know that tons of people make mistakes with their Facebook ads. You’ve called out a few. Every now and then you [inaudible 00:18:52] it over and you go, “Ha ha. See what this person’s doing.” Do you reckon for these people you could, for our people who are listening to the 7 Figure Furnace podcast here, you could just go over a few mistakes that people can avoid when they’re running ads?

Matt: Well, absolutely. A few mistakes I see people making. You’ll see them running, for example, paid posts for like, their ecomm store or for their personal brand through a coach or [inaudible 00:19:16] expert speaker. Whatever it may be. They’ll start gathering comments in the thread, right? One of the easiest things you can do is simply reply to those comments.

If you don’t want to reply to the comments, just have a VA go in. Like, reply, like, reply. People are chronically bored, right? Who was it? I think it was Henry David Thoreau that said, “The mass of men lead lives in quiet desperation.” Right? People are bored. They’re looking to engage, right?

Cindy: Well, that’s another one of your great Facebook advertising tips… I mean, That’s why they’re on Facebook in the first place.

Matt: Yeah. I mean, think about it, right? We’re talking about so much automation coming to our society where you’ll take your automated car to the grocery store to check out at an automated teller. The robot answers the door when you go home. People are looking for personal engagement. Now you go to dinner with people and you got to try to figure out a way to engage a conversation so they stay off their phone.

People want to feel engaged. They want to feel listened to. They want to feel like they matter. Replying to people, commenting, engaging on conversations are absolutely one thing. By not doing that, they feel ignored. Why should they further engage or pay attention to your ads when they actually respond and you do nothing with that?

Another thing that people do are the ads are so loud. It’s one thing to get attention, right? I run some high attention getting ads, as you know. It’s another thing to look like they belong on the Las Vegas strip. Right?

Cindy: We were told probably maybe 12 months ago, maybe even 2 years ago, that the way to get your ads clicked in Facebook is to make them stand out. [inaudible 00:21:06] stand out. People would get told to stick rainbow colored borders around it and just mismatch the colors. Red and pink together look awful. You’re saying don’t do that anymore.

Matt: It depends on what you’re going for. I like running attention-getting ads for some of my stuff, especially if I have to rely on getting attention very the course of a next month. At the same time, that’s a bit completely different model than most people are working on. What they need to do is they need to blend in. They need to look more [inaudible 00:21:41]. If you need to … A good example is people need to understand exactly what you’re advertising. If you’re a speaker, for example, [inaudible 00:21:54] experts. Take a look and see does your ad stand out as an ad? Sorry.

One of the things you want to do is make sure it doesn’t necessarily look like an ad. If you think back … If you close your eyes and think back to a post you saw yesterday, can you remember if it was an ad or not? If you can’t and it could be confused from between a sponsored ad and someone actually posting it on Facebook under the personal brand then that’s a very good sort of native example for like, a coach.

Now, with that in mind, there are some sort of services that really aren’t targetable on Facebook. I mean, I’ve sent you a couple of examples for these. I mean, I saw an offer the other day. A woman was actually coaching, was building a business coaching women on how to run their businesses using their menstrual cycle. I’m not making that up. Remember the ad?

Cindy: It was horribly awful and scary. It was horrible.

Matt: I’m sitting here thinking like …

Cindy: I’m sorry if whoever did that is listening now, but oh man.

Matt: Here’s the thing. They need to change their model because I started thinking. I’m like, if she asked me who do I target? I would be like, “I don’t know.” Who says that’s how I want to run my business? I don’t know. There are some things that probably just don’t work.

Another example is, for example, you look at the ecomm space, or even software. How many times have you seen an ad where instead you’re really curious as to what it is, but they use a little, tiny picture?

Cindy: Yes.

Matt: Right? Then you try to blow it up and you realize they took a 50×50 image and are running it. It’s like, dude, that doesn’t … No, that doesn’t work.

Cindy: No, it’s got to be high quality.

Matt: High resolution images.

Cindy: Yeah.

Matt: If people want a good source of free, royalty free images that they can use for ads, they can go to I mean, that’s a really good … Those are free.

Cindy: Yep. I found a new one recently called Pixabay that I’ve been using sometimes for some really great quality images. You still have to be able to go and put the title over it I think. What was the one that you just mentioned, Matt?

Matt: Unsplash.

Cindy: Unsplash, yeah. Unsplash lets you actually put the text on it and stuff, doesn’t it?

Matt: I don’t know if they do or not.

Cindy: Oh no? Okay.

Matt: I mean, you can just drop it into Keynote or PowerPoint and take a screenshot and be done with it. I mean, it doesn’t have to be super fancy.

Cindy: A high tech version, yep.

Matt: Yeah, absolutely. If get an ecomm product, like a t-shirt or cuff links for example, anything, just make sure it’s a high resolution image.

Another thing is make sure they are not ugly links in the ad. If I see your ad, I should be able to sort of remember it if I don’t click on it. I can’t tell you how many times this happens to me because I’m super ADD. I’ll see an ad. I’m like, “I’m going to click on that.” I’m reading a post, I go to click on the ad, and it’s gone. If I could’ve seen the domain and it’s not like …

Cindy: [crosstalk 00:25:24]. Yeah.

Matt: Right. It’s not like, I’m not going to remember that, or it’s like, Dude, no one’s going to remember that. Make sure you use a simple link. Also, this sounds really simple, make sure your pages actually work.

Cindy: Oh my gosh. Can I tell you what happened to me this morning? I saw an article and it looked interesting. It was clearly an ad, but I thought, you know, I’m going to click it. Clicked it. There was no page there. There was nothing there. I went back. I waited for it to load again and I clicked it again. Now, here I am, this poor person has had to pay twice for this ad because I’m trying to access this article that looked interesting that I wanted to read and there is no page there. Yeah, that sucked.

Matt: Well, exactly. I wonder how many times people will click on it, then they’ll see it on their phone and click on it. Anyway, it’ll drive people crazy. Then after you get it fixed, they see the ad. They’re like, “Oh, no. You got me the first time. You’re not getting me again.”

Cindy: Not wasting my time again. No.

Matt: Well, I mean, I know these sound like really simple things, but we see these happening all the time. Another thing is not asking questions on your fan pages, right? People want to engage. For example, if you have a page in a specific niche, you can ask questions. Based on those answers, you may get ideas, concepts, slogan ideas, whatever, to create t-shirts, necklaces, pendants, bracelets. Whatever it may be that you can turn around and sell to those fans. Especially if you see the same language appearing over and over and over again.

It also builds your engagement. As you get likes, shares, and comments, it’s going to help you build your engagement. You’re going to pay a lower [inaudible 00:27:22] for those ads. Then, it’s going to help you overall. It’s going to help you actually get more engaged customers, right?

Cindy: You do. What do you do if your audiences is very, very small and you’re just starting out? You end up posting questions and no one answers. There’s just crickets. Do you have any [crosstalk 00:27:40] getting people to actually start clicking and stuff?

Matt: I mean, yeah. You can promote that post to a better audience. A lot of times it’s the audience, right? For example, if you look, you may run an ad to 1 audience. I mean, it’s absolute tumbleweeds, right?

Cindy: Right.

Matt: On a recent affiliate campaign I was running, I mean, I was paying like, something like … When I start the campaign, I look at it initially.

It’s like … I change the interest, change audiences. I went from basically paying 60 cents a click down to 15 cents in a matter of hours because there was a totally different engagement with the new audience. It wasn’t a fit for whatever reason.

For me, I like to fail fast. I joke that I can’t even spell SEO because, to me, it takes way too long, right? I used to try to learn SEO back in the days where you’d have to … All right. What you do is you post your back links, you update this, you do that. Now you got to wait 30 days to see if you rank.

Cindy: I know. You’ve already forgotten that you posted that. How much stuff have you done in the last 30 days?

Matt: Right? 30 days from now. I work. I don’t know. I never waited 30 days to find … That was just it, right? I mean, I got to put Post-it notes around my house to remember to eat. I’m not going to remember I optimized my blog for a 7 word SEO post or something like, 30 days ago. That just exhausts me to think about, right?

Cindy: Right, right. Oh my gosh. Yes. Do you have any last final words of advice or anything else? Before we move onto that maybe, do you have anything else that you can share about things that they shouldn’t do with their ads?

Matt: Well, I mean, the thing is be patient, but be patient fast.

Cindy: I’m sorry. How? Be patient, but be patient fast.

Matt: Right. What was it? Anyway, I was trying to remember a quote and I can’t right now. Coach [inaudible 00:29:58] used to say, “Be quick, but don’t hurry.” Be patient fast meaning this. Think long-term. You can make money with Facebook. You can figure it out. It will work for you.

At the same time, you need to constantly be testing your headlines, your ad bodies, you news feeds, your images. You need to be testing everything. Be patient. Know the payoff at the end of 30, 60, 90 days, or even 7. At the same time, you need to be testing things. Sometimes even the most ridiculous things will actually be your best converter.

I will give you a prime example for a client last year. He’s like, “Let’s use my pictures in the ads.” I’m like, “Okay. Let’s do that.” I said, “I’m going to split test it.” I actually split tested his picture versus a cartoon of a random-looking creature because I told the cartoonist, “Draw something weird.” They did. Here’s the interesting thing. The person that they knew, the picture that they recognized, had half the click through rate of the cartoon.

Then, I went and … Because where they were located, I had a grumpy-looking bear, like an Australian drop bear, actually drawn up. I had the client saying,

“There’s a bear around here.” A bear and this guy re going back and forth, right?

Cindy: Right.

Matt: It was complete nonsense, right? But – this one of my facebook advertising tips actually works scarily well.  It engaged that audience because it was a very specific audience of like, 4,000 people. It got their attention. I actually got a couple of Skype messages. People are like, “What are these ads about? They’re so weird.” I’m like, “Perfect. That’s exactly what I was going for.” Over 30 days, if you know something’s coming up in 30 days and you got to keep it, you’ve got to come up with things.

Cindy: Yep, and keep the audience interested and actually connection with you, which is what you’re after, right? Engagement.

Matt: My brain’s totally ADD and random, so I know typically if it’ll help keep my attention, it should keep theirs.

Cindy: Well, that’s awesome. Thank you so much for being here, Matt. Do you have anything? I pretty much sucked you dry of all sorts of information. Thank you for your help. Do you have any final words of wisdom?

Matt: That’s it pretty much. As I said before, if you haven’t, go ahead and subscribe to 7 Figure Furnace.

Cindy: Thank you.

Matt: If anyone wants to hit me up, I don’t have a website to give you or anything for Facebook stuff. It’s something I do internally. You can hit me up on Facebook at FBMatt.CO. That’ll take you straight to my personal Facebook profile. You’ll see a guy in a blue shirt, so that’s how you’ll recognize me.

Cindy: Or if you get totally stuck and you can’t remember or find that, come over to Look for the presentation with

Matt. Leave us a comment there. I’ll make sure that he sees it and then he comes over and says hi and gets in contact with you. Thank you so much for being here, Matt. I’ll catch up with you again soon.

Matt: All right. Thank you for having me. It’s been a lot of fun. Cindy: Okay. Bye.

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